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I just found out about these. It seems like they are released a couple of months ago. 1000 Watt clean, full range, class D amps to be used with modellers.
Has anyone tried these as jazz amps with or without a modeller? The it might pair well with the new Boss IR-2's and it'll all come well under a 1000 dollars. They have a 10 inch and a 12 inch model:
Tone Master(R) FR-10 | Audio
Tone Master(R) FR-12 | Guitar Amplifiers
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01-10-2024 11:51 AM
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Is there any reason that this product would sound better than any other high quality powered speaker, eg. Bose S1 or EV Everse 8?
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Not sure, Tone Masters seem to be more guitar oriented than the PA/mixer combos like Bose S1. Is it just the looks or does it sound more cab like due to its construction? I don't know. It's priced well and has convenient tone controls for quick adjustments on the stage. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It seems to be getting a lot of good reviews so far at least as FRFR powered speakers for modellers.
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I decided to dive into this rabbit hole a few weeks back.
Today I set up a comparison.
1. ME90 with and without the preamp model that I thought sounded best -- Twin. The ME90 was in the system for all tests.
2. Yamaha MG10 into Mackie SRM350 (and one time into the Bose S1)
3. Bose S1
4. EV Everse 8
5. old Roland JC55 guitar amp. 2 8" speakers. 45 solid state watts.
Lots of comparisons. Here are my takeaways (today only, I suspect)
1. They all sound good. They don't sound the same.
2. In the practice room, the Bose is too bassy on low notes and only has two band EQ. I couldn't adequately tame it with 3 band on the ME90. On the positive side, higher notes have a mellow, musical quality I liked. I've done 4 gigs with it -- and it was great when I could position it well.
3. The Everse 8 has a tendency to sound a little harsh -- opposite of the mellowness of the Bose S1, but low frequences are controllable. One gig (big band). I liked the power for the forte passages but it was a little hard to control the volume with the foot pedal on the ME90. Not sure why.
4. The Yamaha/SRM350 combo, which I have gigged with multiple times and been very happy, was not noticeably better than either the Everse 8 or the Bose S1. This may be a practice room effect. Most of the gigs were outdoors.
5. The Roland JC55 probably sounded best of all. "Best" is defined as the one that seemed most enjoyable to play for whatever reason.
6. The Line/Amp switch and the preamp models on the ME90, based on today's tests, seem oversold. I kept turning the preamp model on and off and often liked the no-preamp better than the best-preamp. I couldn't hear much difference with the Mic/Line switch. My hearing is far from perfect and I didn't test it every possible way, but I was underwhelmed. Bear in mind that I was going for a pretty clean sound -- a lot of users of the ME90 probably are moving in a very different sonic direction.
7. I probably reinvented the wheel here. It's common knowledge that a powered speaker is going to sound as good as a guitar amp unless you put some modeling in front of it. Perhaps with a truly high-end modeler? But, the ME90 reportedly has the same preamps as Boss's most expensive modeling unit so maybe this is a reasonable evaluation of a high end modeler - and I just wasn't that impressed. I am aware that some excellent players swear by modelers -- and that other excellent players swear by EH-150 amps from 1939 or 50's Gibsons.
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I've started using one of these new frfr cabs with a Helix Stomp and my Comins GCS 16-1, and I love the sound I'm getting.
Ive had it about 3 months now. I chose the FR10 because I generally prefer a less boomy 10" speaker with an archtop, and it's a smidge lighter and smaller than the 12" FR12.
Gigged our Big Band with it once so far, and it held up really well. Plenty enough volume - and headroom - despite this being a v loud band. Cab v light and easy to wrestle between car and stage.
Great dispersion without any beaming, both at home and on the gig. Doesn't sound at all boxy. Sounds natural and not artificial or digital (despite much of the tone coming from the digital source of the Stomp).
Doesn't take up much room and seems quite happy squished up alongside me against the back wall of the stage. It leans back on its robust and nifty tilt legs. The tweakable tone controls on the top are great for tuning to the room.
I've found it much easier to get a good tone out of this rig than with my Tone Master Twin Reverb. I find myself concentrating on my playing rather than on tweaking knobs to get an acceptable tone.
I think I'm unusual in that I prefer my guitar tone as I hear it through nice headphones straight out of the Stomp, rather than as I hear it from the Stomp sent to an amp - but this FR10 cab gives me more of that HiFi headphoney quality that I like. I think the expansive sound without much beaming or 'direction' helps. It just sounds sweet to me.
I've used it both with and without a cab block in the Helix chain and it handles both really well - they just sound 'different'.
There are increasing numbers of reviews online, with many people enjoying them. The detractors mention the mild hiss (which from what I've read seems to be a circuit design limitation). Mine does have this hiss too, but it's only mild and utterly forgettable once I'm playing and focused on the fretboard and what my fingers should be doing. I do appreciate however that if the hiss is gonna wind you up, then it's gonna wind you up, end of story.
They're probably not for everyone, and your mileage may well vary, but for what it's worth to you guys here - I'm very happy with mine.
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I'm so out of touch with this new generation of amplification but, albeit late, I'm starting to show an interest!
I'm still using Polytone an Musicman amps from 30 to 40 years ago.
Anyway, for example, my Musicman is rated at 65 watts and the Tonemaster is 1000w. I know that the relationship between volume and power is not linear, but my musicman is so freakin' loud and I can't imagine anyone needing 1000w in a guitar amp.
What am I missing? Thanks
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Well, from what I've read online, and experienced first-hand, I gather the description about these things being "1000w" (as an everyday guitarist might think of it) is most likely marketing bull at best.
There maybe some arcane technical spec related to the neoquantum foam predrive flux circuit that means it can technically generate that much current, but I don't think anything like that sound pressure level is coming out the front. I'm certainly not worried I'll be flung across the room like Marty McFly.
Having said that, with volume set on 5 it can keep up with my 'enthusiastic' (really loud) earplug-wearing big band, so it certainly has enough clean oomph for me.
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i'm always puzzled at the prospect of a 20khz freq range for a modeler that's looking to model '60s speakers which fall off a cliff at about 5k. Find out what ice module power amp they are using inside. That'll tell you the real power.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
They couldn’t very well call it full-range if it didn’t go above 5kHz could they? Originally Posted by jzucker
That said, I’m pretty confused as to why a “flat response” unit has tone controls.
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That's the point. Why does it have to be full range to emulate guitar speakers? Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Because it could be used to emulate more than that? Originally Posted by jzucker
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Bewhare there are complaints of white noise issues - apparently it's quite audible in some cases and on others.
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yeah, i guess if I'm going to run my piccolo through a vintage plexi marshall amp model, I can see why i'd need 20khz! Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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did they fix the hiss on these yet?
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Well, I’ve used my Friedman FRFR amp/cab for a lot more than just guitar amp modelers. Among other things it functions beautifully as a vocal monitor. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Even if a speaker has low sensitivity at high frequencies, a modeler would still need a full range to model the whole system of the amplifier. In other words, cabinet resonance has spectral components well above 5khz. Larger cabs tend to have more than smaller cabs. This is part of what it means for small speakers/cabs to sound boxy. Originally Posted by jzucker
Also, I don't know where you got the idea that 60s speakers have no info above 5khz. Vintage Jensen speakers have lots of detail in that range. JBL F series speakers were used in Fender amps beginning in the 60s and people complain that those speakers have too much high frequency sensitivity.
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This thread has specifics and a fix for those wishing to dive in with their soldering iron.. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Fender FR-10/FR-12 noise reduction mod | The Gear Forum
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A piccolo tops out at 5Khz Originally Posted by jzucker
Pretty sure the 20Khz is the end spec on the tweeter. I have a Redstone cabinet with a tweeter. Doesn't seem to do all that much.
Some would likely want more high freq for their acoustic archtops with a piezo. Same for a flat top. Some FRFR speakers also work well for voice, backing, drum machines, et al. If a FRFR doesn't suit your application, no need to use one.
I'm still curious about the spectrum of speaker IR's. They are made using a sweep from 20hz to 20khz sin wave to capture a broad range of information and it's not clear why. Not sure what happens after convolution / de-convolution and all the other steps I'm too lazy to research. I can tell just using EQ that there is something above 5Khz on at least some of my IR's but when I'm playing something like an ES175, doesn't seem to matter much. You can lop it off at 5khz and if anything, it sounds better.
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running overdrive through a FRFR cab without a low pass filter sounds awful! Originally Posted by Spook410
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I spent all this money for nice carved wood. Why would I run overdrive? Originally Posted by jzucker
But if I did.. it's just a turn of a knob to get whatever filter I want. Not looking to use the speaker itself for that function. I want the speaker to handle anything I throw at it.
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Thanks, I was aware of a solution but didn't know the link! Still, just as a warning for any potential buyers - unless you want to start soldering, the problem exists. Originally Posted by Spook410
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My initial thought too. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Last edited by Woody Sound; 01-12-2024 at 04:49 PM.
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The 1000W quoted is peak, the actual RMS is somewhere between 150W and a bit more. (giving 133dB - ouch thats very loud). Originally Posted by Simon1234
Why do they quote peak? I think they did this to show that the unit won't clip. To perform well the FRFR speaker/amp must not run out of headroom and clip, under any circumstances , (or it won't sound good). So these amps have a very very high headroom design to ensure this.
As a 150W RMS amp giving 133dB thats very loud, way louder than acoustic drums in a rock scenario
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The internal main speaker is at least 150W rms, the power amp module has ultra high headroom, up to 1000W spikes, to ensure no clipping or compression ever happens.
It does appear counter intuitive that to simulate an old 60's guitar speaker one would use an FRFR speaker with a high top frequency. The tweeter, and frequency response up to 20k is there to make the cab have the ability to reproduce any waveform particularly with a very high transient attack. (I won't drone on about Fourier analysis and summing sine waves), in a nutshell it means that the FRFR can better reproduce the subtle details of the modelled sound more effectively. (eg, you could have a vintage sound that was very dark but with a very hard attack to it)
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Yes, hiss is less on the current models
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