LJ into powered speaker, kind of a problem

[Spook410]

I know nothing about mixing boards and PAs; is there a good introduction for dummies somewhere on the Internet to learn more about this?

This guy is pretty clear in terms of Direct Box versus Line Isolation in the world of guitar stuff.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The way it's supposed to work: XLR LoZ Direct Outs are (almost) always mic level. And the DV Mark Little Jazz manual is wrong as is their design if it is otherwise. Which, apparently, it is. Would have been better to have a TRS and make it clear it's line level when saying it's destined for the console.

A better implementation can be found on the Quilter Tone Block.. TRS for the Sig Out, XLR for Direct Out with appropriate levels.

I wouldn’t perpetuate this thread if it weren’t so important to so many. I think the confusion here arises from the widespread use of XLR output jacks for both mic/instrument and line level signals. A basic DI (which originally stood for direct injection, IIRC) converts an unbalanced high impedance mic level signal to a 600 Ohm balanced mic level signal that will emerge from long lines with its frequency spectrum intact. That’s all it does if it’s a simple transformer based device. It has no gain stage of any kind. AFAIK, there is no generally available guitar amp with a true DI that puts out the same low voltage signal (altered only by the transformer ratio) into a 600 Ohm mic/instrument level input.

There are active DI boxes that add gain. These are easy to identify, even without looking at the specs, because they have gain pots or switches. Start from 0 and slowly increase the gain while playing through a mic level input. You’ll soon find out if it’s mic or line level. The input signal is unprocessed and unaltered at the output apart from voltage level. The Reddi box we use at the club has a maximum output of +22 dBu, which is 9 volts into 600 Ohms. Plug that into a mic level input and you’ll trigger protective output circuitry or blow a tweeter well before it reaches even a few volts. Technically, this is a preamplifier because it increases the very low voltage of the input signal enough to drive the next stage of amplification (the line level input it feeds).

The XLR output jacks on guitar amps are labeled “line out” because they’re line level outputs. They are not DI outputs, they’re line outputs. This description from the current Quilter Mach 3 says it all:



My experience differs from yours. I’ve never seen a guitar amp with a true DI output that feeds a mic level signal into a low Z input at the other end of the cable. Every balanced output I’ve ever had on an amp was a line level output. The DV Mark XLRs all put out line level voltage. Tonemasters all put out line level voltage (and have level pots to adjust for varying input sensitivities of the receiving devices).

Most of the mixing consoles I’ve seen and owned had low Z and high Z mic level inputs plus low Z and high Z line level inputs. The same jacks were often switched so they could be used as both mic / instrument and line inputs. Some used trim pots to adjust input sensitivity. I’ve never owned one with autosensing inputs and don’t know how they work. The above is what I’ve found to be typical of the mixers owned and used by amateurs and local / regional pros who didn’t need or couldn’t afford true pro / studio stuff.

I hope the above will help those experiencing problems like the OP’s.

[pingu]

FWIW

my Aer Comp60’s XLR o/p is line
level i’ve used it into PA boards a couple of times (worked well
the sound guy said)

[John A.]

I can't say that I fully understand the Pad. Clearly, if you plug in a mic at -50db or so, you don't need to reduce the level -- you need to increase it. So, no Pad.


[So, when do you need a Pad? I guess if something, allegedly keys for example, comes in hotter than -10dbu. Would that be +4db pro line level or even hotter?]

You use a pad on very loud sources (especially ones with very loud transients) in order to avoid overloading the first gain stage of the mic pre. If you didn't pad, say, a kickdrum mic, you'd have almost no usable range in the volume fader. Padding the input brings the signal into the fader at low enough level that you can set the fader in the middle and have room to raise or lower level according to the needs of the mix. If you're using a mic with a built in pad (common on condensers used on studios) you might not need to pad the input, but stage mics are more often dynamics that don't have pads, so it's useful to have that built into the mixer.

[Spook410]

The XLR output jacks on guitar amps are labeled “line out” because they’re line level outputs. They are not DI outputs, they’re line outputs. This description from the current Quilter Mach 3 says it all:



My experience differs from yours. I’ve never seen a guitar amp with a true DI output

You are correct in that it's confusing and important. So.. to beat it a bit more while we're at it:

My Quilter 202.. TRS Sig Out, XLR Direct Out (mic level). Schertler stuff I'm used to has a mic level DI out (among other things). Same with ACUS but not many of those in the US. AER has DI. Grace Felix lets you select 'mic' or 'line' via button. To your point, the examples I have around here are labeled 'Direct', not 'Line'.

Other examples that support a mic level include Fender Tonemaster which allows you to adjust the level of the XLR Out from mic to line, Rivera is same with output adjustment from mic to line.

There are some examples of 'none of the above' like Fender Acoustic amps that have a Balanced Line Out running at +4db. Suitable for powered speakers but not a lot else outside the studio.

Many guitar amps have a 1/4" unbalanced line out.

My objection is this: If there is a balanced out that says it goes to the console with no other information, it should be a mic level. There should not be an expectation that your board will accept a line level to the mic inputs. If this is done, then it should be really clear in the manual that it's not a mic level (kudos to Quilter in your example with their SIG OUT designation).

I think what you're saying is that we should expect it to be Line level when it says 'Line' and that seems pretty reasonable given what you've seen and I don't doubt that's how it almost always is. 'Line' means 'Line'. As far as I can tell, 'Balanced Out' also means 'Line Level Out'. And I'm sure it's cheaper for the amp manufacturer to do that after the preamp stage rather than provide a proper DI. I still think they should be clear in the manual that it's not going to make the mic level on many mixing boards happy.

[rpjazzguitar]

You use a pad on very loud sources (especially ones with very loud transients) in order to avoid overloading the first gain stage of the mic pre. If you didn't pad, say, a kickdrum mic, you'd have almost no usable range in the volume fader. Padding the input brings the signal into the fader at low enough level that you can set the fader in the middle and have room to raise or lower level according to the needs of the mix. If you're using a mic with a built in pad (common on condensers used on studios) you might not need to pad the input, but stage mics are more often dynamics that don't have pads, so it's useful to have that built into the mixer.

Ahhh! Okay.Thanks, John A.

And, thanks to all. I now understand the gain staging much better, which means I can expect consistent good results.

[pauln]

We need a forum sticky on line levels and impedance, direct outs, and balanced line extenders. As we move into the era of amp modelers it's just going to come up more and more.

It would be an excellent project; a tutorial for guitar oriented connectivity where one can learn the definitions of things (like "sensitivity" which is not what it sounds like) and reasons for things (like why low impedance outputs go to high impedance inputs) and principles of stages (like managing noise and overload in series of gain stages).

[rpjazzguitar]

I seem to recall a story from years ago about a crooked mechanic telling a customer "you got a busted frimmitz".

There is no such thing as a "frimmitz" and, frankly, I'm skeptical about "impedance".

So yes, I'd read the tutuorial.

Maybe it could explain the following in babytalk:

"As an example, a complex impedance consisting of 4 ohms of resistance and +j5 ohms of inductive reactance is denoted as a vector from the origin to the point on the plane corresponding to 4 + j5. This is the equivalent of a 100-ohm resistor in series with an inductor having +j211. 5 ohms of reactance."

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You are correct in that it's confusing and important. So.. to beat it a bit more while we're at it:

My Quilter 202.. TRS Sig Out, XLR Direct Out (mic level). Schertler stuff I'm used to has a mic level DI out (among other things). Same with ACUS but not many of those in the US. AER has DI. Grace Felix lets you select 'mic' or 'line' via button. To your point, the examples I have around here are labeled 'Direct', not 'Line'.

If you’re correct, I must be misinterpreting what I think I know about and have experienced with Quilters. Start with the description of sig out in the 202 manual:



Neither line out nor headphone out is mic level. As for AER, their “DI” is not a true mic level DI. Here’s their manual’s description of that function:


AER clearly describes this as a preamp output. That’s a line level signal.

The fact that some amps have attenuation pots or switches to reduce the level of these outputs to mV so they can drive a mic input without distortion does not make them true DIs. They’re all preamp outputs. I don’t know anything about Schertlers except that I’ve heard one used by a busker (in Bath, England of all places) and was very impressed with it.

I’m having trouble even understanding why anyone would put a true mic level DI in a guitar amp. If the guitar input is used to drive both the amplifier’s input stage and a DI (active or passive), it would need a sophisticated circuit to split the signal and maintain the proper overall load on it while driving the separate loads of both the DI circuit and the amp’s input stage. The practice of using a preamp out with attenuation to get it down to mV levels if desired is easier and more flexible - and it’s probably cheaper than adding a transformer and isolating / shielding the entire DI circuit from the rest of the amp.

This is why most manufacturers use line outs. I’ve never seen a true mic level DI out in a guitar amp. FWIW, I’d prefer a balanced line level preamp output to a mic level DI anyway. It’s more versatile. I can drive powered speakers with it. I can record from it.

[Spook410]

AER 60 manual says DI Out is -28db. Should be mic level. They have a separate 1/4" Line Out. Not sure if it's TRS or not.

From Quilter 202 manual: "DIRECT OUT: Provides a mic-level, isolated
signal" They distinguish this from their SIG OUT. Documentation is better than most. Another reason to be a Quilter fan.


I prefer a mic level out because the mic inputs on my Acus 350 don't have a trim function. There's a 1/4" Line In but that's unbalanced. I do like an XLR Line Out to drive my other powered speakers though. When not using the Grace Felix which has select-able balanced mic or line, I use a somewhat obscure tube DI / Line Isolator to take the unbalanced to balanced. It will output balanced mic or Line Out from separate XLR output jacks.

What I learned from this thread that I didn't know before: If the label says 'Line' or just 'Balanced' it's likely a line level (around -10db) output. I always, and wrongly, assumed that if it said 'Balanced' it was mic level. And now I know not to let a manual lead me to the assumption it's mic level when all it says is an output is designed to go to the console.

[rpjazzguitar]

Today, I tried something a little different. I left out the Mixer.

So, it was guitar > ME80 > Little Jazz XLR > Mackie 350 (set for Line, not Mic).

I had to rotate the volume knob to about 2 o-clock and it still wasn't that loud.

DV Mark doesn't publish the XLR output level. If it's -10dbu, does that mean with the LJ volume all the way up? I had it at maybe 1 or 2 o'clock and I was rolling off all the bass and a little treble.

So, might I be correct in assuming that I wasn't get -10dbu worth of voltage coming out of the LJ?

If I wanted more volume, I could have switched the Mackie to Mic, but then the bass frequencies go crazy (Nevershould suggested this is an impedance mismatch, if I understood him correctly).

That means, the LJ looks like it could drive a powered speaker, but not really all that well. It really seems to want a little more amplification.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think the LJ line out level is -10 dBV, which would be a bit under half a volt regardless of load. -10 dBu would be just over a quarter of a volt into 600 Ohms. All of these ratings are maximum - if there is a gain control for the line out and the line out is independent of the amp’s volume pot(s), it would be fully up. But it also depends on the input signal voltage and would be rated at the signal level used to determine the amp’s output power and the distortion level at that power.

A hot pickup will drive an amplification stage to a higher level than a low output one can do. Higher input voltage will drive both line outs and speaker outs to higher levels until the input reaches the amp’s maximum. So your guitar’s output level also affects the voltage of the line out signal.

It’s complicated.

[sgosnell]

Rolling off all the bass will inevitably lower the available volume. There is no way around that that I know of, so you'll just have to live with less volume. I know you don't like raising the amp, but doing so uncouples the bass to some extent, so you could keep that control somewhere above zero and perhaps get a little more volume. But you have your sound preferences, so you may want to change how you set it up. You will lose volume, though.

[rpjazzguitar]

nevershould and sgos,

Thanks. All that is consistent with my experience. I have to try some additional experiments. For example, running the LJ all the way up. I've avoided it on the general principle that most things don't sound good all the way up, but with the LJ speaker turned off, maybe it will sound ok thru the Mackie? I haven't tried that yet.

Otherwise, the signal out of the LJ needs to go through something -- the mixer or substitute. One possibility is a Prosonus unit (an idea stolen from one of our members) which contains a 12ax7 and might tame that iciness I mentioned while providing enough gain.

Another idea is to go to the ME90, which, reportedly has some features which are designed to make it work right into a PA (which means, a mixer, not right into a powered speaker, so it might have the same issue, but it might be addressable with the ME90 preamps).

And, finally, there's the option of buying a Bud and seeing if it's really as loud and great-sounding as need be for my application. I've been resisting it because of the high cost per speaker-inch. That is, after being disappointed with the Lunchbox's 6 inch speaker, I'm having trouble taking the plunge again. Would it really work say in Sunday's gig which was outdoors, needing to project 100 feet or so for maybe 100 people? Or would I still end up carrying the powered speaker?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

And, finally, there's the option of buying a Bud and seeing if it's really as loud and great-sounding as need be for my application. I've been resisting it because of the high cost per speaker-inch.

I love my Blu 6. It sounds great - it's full and rich, and all my guitars have 7 strings. Band mates and audiences love the way it sounds with my archtops and my Tele 7. It has enough juice for 99% of my gigs. Yes, it's a lot more money than a LJ. But it's a lot more amplifier - the power rating is real, and both amplifier and speaker cab designs are stellar. The bass is tight and my low A (55 Hz) is right there. It was certainly worth it to me.

[Spook410]

What happens when you plug the ME80 straight into the Mackie SR350?

[rpjazzguitar]

What happens when you plug the ME80 straight into the Mackie SR350?

Haven't tried that lately, but iirc, I needed to go "mic"to get enough volume and the bass frequencies bloomed.
Or maybe it was that the whole setup sounded too icy. Either way, there were some possibilities I left unexplored, like creating a new back of patches for that situation and plugging in a dummy lineout to trigger the cab sim (which doesn't do much).

The ME90 just came out and, reportedly, has some features to make going right into the board work better. But, the nominal output is still -10dbu, so going right into the powered speaker may have the same issue -- too loud and bass on "mic", not quite loud enough on "line".

If I insert the Yamaha mixer in that chain, it should work, since the mixer drives the Mackie harder.

Sorry to be so vague, but I have a couple of hours of experimentation still to do to evaluate all the possibilities.

[rpjazzguitar]

Just hooked it up this way and that and made a few notes.

Plugging the ME80 into the Mackie sounds pretty good if I don't try to make it too loud. (I didn't like any setup played too loud, which may be my hearing). Adding the LJ to the signal chain made it sound a little better.

Keeping the "Normal" light lit (on chords) on the Mackie back panel seems like it helps. It didn't seem to matter whether I did that with ME 80 Output Level or LJ volume control.

In fact, I could turn both the LJ volume and the ME80 Output level, simultaneously, all the way up (pinned) and it sounded about the same if I kept the Mackie volume low. In fact, it was one of the best sounds I got. The Mackie Peak indicator light never lit under any condition.

[Spook410]

In fact, I could turn both the LJ volume and the ME80 Output level, simultaneously, all the way up (pinned) and it sounded about the same..

Thanks for letting us know. Makes me feel better about all the times I've screwed around with guitar electronics just to come away wondering what the heck..

[rpjazzguitar]

Today's experiment was guitar > ME80 > LJ > Yamaha mixer > Mackie SRM350.

As far as gain staging went, I don't think it made much difference if I added volume with the ME80 output level knob or with the LJ's. Sounded about the same and if there was added noise one way or another, I couldn't hear it.

But, what did make a difference was making sure the Output Level meter (a stack of LEDs) on the mixer was lighting up green. The thing will run below the level of the lights (so none light up) and with everything turned up (including Mixer channel gain) I could get the red light to light briefly.

But, by getting just the first few LEDs in the stack showing green, the Mackie could get really loud and it still sounded roughly like it did played more quietly (well, at least there was no obvious bloom in bass frequencies -- some harshness is probably my hearing and trying this in a small room rather than on a loud gig).

To get the LED's lighting up that way, I ran the ME80 and LJ both at noon. I ran channel volume and output volume at unity, which is indicated by an arrow on the mixer faceplate. Then, I adjusted the gain knob to get the Output Level LED stack lighting up green. Too much gain knob will distort the signal, apparently, but I wasn't anywhere close to that. I ended up about 11 o'clock, and that was with rolling off bass on the mixer (9 o'clock) and also rolling off all the bass on the LJ. What can I say? If I want bass, I'll call a bass player.

So, the result is, ME80 right into the Mackie sounds okay but won't go very loud.

ME80, LJ and Mackie (that is, adding the LJ as a preamp) improved the sound a bit to my ear.

ME80, LJ, Yamaha, Mackie was the best. It permitted control over the gain staging to drive the Mackie optimally. It also allowed me to roll off more bass. There was some hiss which I tracked down to the compression knob -- turning it off eliminated the hiss.

I then tried rolling off the bass with the ME80 EQ and leaving it at noon on the LJ and Mixer. That worked, but I think it sounded a little better being rolled off with the LJ and Mixer. By then, the bass started sounding good to me -- a perceptual variable that screws up the experiments.

I had to remind myself of the original point. Can I get a good sound on chords at higher volume than the LJ by using a powered speaker? And, how to wire things up to make that work optimally.

Answer seems to be that the LJ is a good preamp which shapes the sound in a pleasing way.

Then, to get that sound loud enough for bigger gigs, it seems best to run through a mixer into a powered speaker.

Basically, the same thing as when the venue has a decent PA and I run the LJ into it.

For smaller gigs, the powered speaker may help getting chords to sound good at levels louder than the LJ, but not super loud.

I might mention that Reg uses a somewhat similar system on his gigs and his sound is excellent.

Looking back, I guess this post is a little overdetailed.

[John A.]

I guess if you already have all this stuff, and have uses for it other than making yourself louder on gigs, and you don't mind schlepping it to gigs, it works. But I think it would be a lot easier to get a louder amp such as a Henriksen (and offset that cost by selling what wouldn't need it you had a louder amp).

[rpjazzguitar]

I guess if you already have all this stuff, and have uses for it other than making yourself louder on gigs, and you don't mind schlepping it to gigs, it works. But I think it would be a lot easier to get a louder amp such as a Henriksen (and offset that cost by selling what wouldn't need it you had a louder amp).

Nothing to sell, really. I don't own the Mackie, but I have it on a kind of long loan. I still need the Yamaha to run vocals and the Mackie is good for that too. Maybe sell the LJ, but I think I'd keep it as a backup.

I've been thinking about a Bud, but I've never had an opportunity to evaluate one. I'm having trouble believing that the small speaker is going to give me what I can get from the Mackie.

Also, as a practical matter, the gigs and rehearsals I've been playing have been falling into some categories:

1. Small enough for the LJ (although I do think a Bud might improve the sound of chords, which are a tiny bit barky through the LJ).

2. A little bigger, but there's a pianist with a speaker on a pole (one extra input and barebones mixing) and I can run a line (LJ>Mixer>speaker) to his speaker while also using the LJ speaker. I also run a mic into the mixer and thence to the PA, so I need the mixer anyway. Might the Bud cover that?

3. Still bigger, but there's a PA and I run right into it from the LJ (I don't have to do any vocals on those).

4. Bigger, but no PA, in which case I bring the LJ, mixer and powered speaker. Usually there's a piano with some speakers but not always.

5. Small but there's a Blues Jr. there and it sounds great. I don't have to lift it.

6. Need to be loud, no PA, no piano, but there isn't much room on the bandstand. That would be a good application for the Bud.
Right now, I'm turning the LJ up loud, but it isn't really good enough that way.

Of all these situations, the one that sounded best was the ME80 and LJ into a JBL line array PA (the one with 7 inputs). I understand that there can be problems putting a guitar through a line array (depending on the overall configuration of the band) but I loved playing through it. Everything sounded clear, natural and without feeling that "I'm over here and my sound is over there".

Another possibility, short of the Bud, is a smaller, high quality, powered speaker.

[John A.]

Nothing to sell, really. I don't own the Mackie, but I have it on a kind of long loan. I still need the Yamaha to run vocals and the Mackie is good for that too. Maybe sell the LJ, but I think I'd keep it as a backup.

I've been thinking about a Bud, but I've never had an opportunity to evaluate one. I'm having trouble believing that the small speaker is going to give me what I can get from the Mackie.

Also, as a practical matter, the gigs and rehearsals I've been playing have been falling into some categories:

1. Small enough for the LJ (although I do think a Bud might improve the sound of chords, which are a tiny bit barky through the LJ).

2. A little bigger, but there's a pianist with a speaker on a pole (one extra input and barebones mixing) and I can run a line (LJ>Mixer>speaker) to his speaker while also using the LJ speaker. I also run a mic into the mixer and thence to the PA, so I need the mixer anyway. Might the Bud cover that?

3. Still bigger, but there's a PA and I run right into it from the LJ (I don't have to do any vocals on those).

4. Bigger, but no PA, in which case I bring the LJ, mixer and powered speaker. Usually there's a piano with some speakers but not always.

5. Small but there's a Blues Jr. there and it sounds great. I don't have to lift it.

6. Need to be loud, no PA, no piano, but there isn't much room on the bandstand. That would be a good application for the Bud.
Right now, I'm turning the LJ up loud, but it isn't really good enough that way.

Of all these situations, the one that sounded best was the ME80 and LJ into a JBL line array PA (the one with 7 inputs). I understand that there can be problems putting a guitar through a line array (depending on the overall configuration of the band) but I loved playing through it. Everything sounded clear, natural and without feeling that "I'm over here and my sound is over there".

Another possibility, short of the Bud, is a smaller, high quality, powered speaker.

FWIW, here's my gear picture:

- I do a lot of small gigs and jam sessions where my 20-watt Fender Champion 20 is enough amp (12 lbs, 8-inch speaker, similar footprint to an LJ, but a different shape). Honestly, an LJ is not a whole lot louder (my duo partner has one, so I've heard them side by side quite a bit).
- I sometimes do bigger gigs and/or bluesier ones, and for that I had been using a Princeton Reverb. But I just got a Quilter Aviator Cub which can have a lot more clean headroom than the PR if needed, is a similar footprint and weighs only 21 LBS. The Princeton is sold (or will be tomorrow when the buyer shows up). I haven't had a chance to compare the quilter to the LJ yet, but judging from a gig a did with it, I think's got more headroom and overall volume.
- For vocals I have a TC Helicon VoiceSolo, which is a mini-PA/personal-monitor (similar-ish to your Mackie, but smaller). It has 2 built in mic pres, eq, compression, and reverb. It's 150 watts, which is enough for small gigs if only a vocal is going through it, plus it can hang off the mic stand (so need for a separate stand). The mic pres can also handle hi-z guitar or line level, and you can get away with using it as a guitar amp. It's quite small and light.

With this set-up I have not had any need for a mixer.

[rpjazzguitar]

FWIW, here's my gear picture:

- I do a lot of small gigs and jam sessions where my 20-watt Fender Champion 20 is enough amp (12 lbs, 8-inch speaker, similar footprint to an LJ, but a different shape). Honestly, an LJ is not a whole lot louder (my duo partner has one, so I've heard them side by side quite a bit).
- I sometimes do bigger gigs and/or bluesier ones, and for that I had been using a Princeton Reverb. But I just got a Quilter Aviator Cub which can have a lot more clean headroom than the PR if needed, is a similar footprint and weighs only 21 LBS. The Princeton is sold (or will be tomorrow when the buyer shows up). I haven't had a chance to compare the quilter to the LJ yet, but judging from a gig a did with it, I think's got more headroom and overall volume.
- For vocals I have a TC Helicon VoiceSolo, which is a mini-PA/personal-monitor (similar-ish to your Mackie, but smaller). It has 2 built in mic pres, eq, compression, and reverb. It's 150 watts, which is enough for small gigs if only a vocal is going through it, plus it can hang off the mic stand (so need for a separate stand). The mic pres can also handle hi-z guitar or line level, and you can get away with using it as a guitar amp. It's quite small and light.

With this set-up I have not had any need for a mixer.

John, Thanks for this info. I hadn't thought about the mini-PA/personal-monitor products. If they sound good for voice, why not guitar?
I wonder if you've tried running a line from the LJ to the TC (with or without the LJ speaker on)?

I've been meaning to try a Champ, based on your recommendation.

The TC may not truly be a mixer, but it's more mixer than the Mackie, what with channel volume, EQ and FX. Seems like it's enough mixer for the applications we're discussing.

Your help thinking this through is much appreciated.

[John A.]

John, Thanks for this info. I hadn't thought about the mini-PA/personal-monitor products. If they sound good for voice, why not guitar?
I wonder if you've tried running a line from the LJ to the TC (with or without the LJ speaker on)?

No, I've used it for vocals and have plugged a guitar directly into it, but never tried a line in to it.

I've been meaning to try a Champ, based on your recommendation.

The TC may not truly be a mixer, but it's more mixer than the Mackie, what with channel volume, EQ and FX. Seems like it's enough mixer for the applications we're discussing.

Your help thinking this through is much appreciated.

Glad to be of some service.