Would this 10 string guitar work in a jazz band context?

[jazznylon]

Ralph Patt basically invented major 3rds tuning and played it on 8-string guitars, but he kept one 6-string archtop precisely for his band work, including with Benny Goodman.

Interesting. I did not know that regarding his 6 string for band work. Thanks for the info

[pauln]

12-string (fretless!) might be converted to 12 string tuned in "thirds" (diminished fourths) with some work on the nut, maybe the bridge... how fat are your fingers?



Agile AL-3100 Black Fretless 12 String - RondoMusic.com

[jazznylon]

12-string (fretless!) might be converted to 12 string tuned in "thirds" (diminished fourths) with some work on the nut, maybe the bridge... how fat are your fingers?



Agile AL-3100 Black Fretless 12 String - RondoMusic.com

Looks pretty cool! I have small skinny fingers, the hardest part for me playing a 10 string classical is reaching towards the lower bass strings around the 10th fret. Sometimes I rather not have my thumb behind the neck in that case. But I do like having the option of 2 lower bass strings below low E in case theres a tough counterpoint stretch slur involving first position. Makes things easier if I can shift it up to a higher position (5th fret) with the lower bass strings since the frets are closer to each other there

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

12-string (fretless!) might be converted to 12 string tuned in "thirds" (diminished fourths) with some work on the nut, maybe the bridge... how fat are your fingers?



Agile AL-3100 Black Fretless 12 String - RondoMusic.com

I can barely imagine the intonation problems on a fretless 12 string tuned in 3rds . Then again, it could be just the thing for an Ornette Coleman tribute band....

[Peter C]

it could be just the thing for an Ornette Coleman tribute band....

Ha!

OP, you're putting the gear before the gig, IMO. You don't even detail the kind of "jazz" you're planning on playing, or what/how you're playing now. Anyway, get a Tele.

[paulkogut]

If there were Internet forums 50+ years ago I imagine that folks would be advising Rahsaan Roland Kirk not to stick three horns at once in his mouth.... That said, unusual instruments/techniques do face an uphill battle. If you have a vision for how that instrument should be played, and the commitment to put a band together, it could work. If you're getting calls to play Real Book brunch gigs, maybe not so much...Best wishes for your music!

PK

[jazznylon]

Ha!

OP, you're putting the gear before the gig, IMO. You don't even detail the kind of "jazz" you're planning on playing, or what/how you're playing now. Anyway, get a Tele.

Uh... you know! The regular kind! Take the A Train, On green dolphin street, autumn leaves, mr. P.c something something... I guess I can put up my instagram on my signature again but I rather not risk tormenting esteemed musicians like everyone here. For the common folk sure Anyways Tele sounds fun...

[jazznylon]

If there were Internet forums 50+ years ago I imagine that folks would be advising Rahsaan Roland Kirk not to stick three horns at once in his mouth.... That said, unusual instruments/techniques do face an uphill battle. If you have a vision for how that instrument should be played, and the commitment to put a band together, it could work. If you're getting calls to play Real Book brunch gigs, maybe not so much...Best wishes for your music!

PK

Thanks... ! Makes sense

[Peter C]

OK, so put up a video with your current 10 string nylon guitar to get an idea of how you would comp (fingerstyle, right?) behind a sax player. I mean, if you made it work, I'm all over it...

OTOH, just get a Tele; your bass player will like you for it.

[jazznylon]

OK, so put up a video with your current 10 string nylon guitar to get an idea of how you would comp (fingerstyle, right?) behind a sax player. I mean, if you made it work, I'm all over it...

OTOH, just get a Tele; your bass player will like you for it.

Sure! I have a youtube account I barely use so I could just upload there. Be right back

[jazznylon]

Well... I did what I could. My apologies for assaulting the senses

[AllanAllen]

If there were Internet forums 50+ years ago I imagine that folks would be advising Rahsaan Roland Kirk not to stick three horns at once in his mouth.... That said, unusual instruments/techniques do face an uphill battle. If you have a vision for how that instrument should be played, and the commitment to put a band together, it could work. If you're getting calls to play Real Book brunch gigs, maybe not so much...Best wishes for your music!

PK

Roland Kirk knew it was a gimmick and ran with it, like ZZ Top. He was cool enough, confident enough, to work it. So cool.

[Christian Miller]

Well... I did what I could. My apologies for assaulting the senses

well I think those clustered voicings sound very cool. I certainly see value in the tuning scheme and it sounds distinct from the usual voicings guitarists play.

do you need a 10 string, or could you get by with a 7 string for playing in a band?

I don’t know E G# C E G# C E would cover the standard guitar range. You don’t really need the basses in that setting.

There are a few jazz boxes that have seven strings which would avoid the hurtful comments haha. There’s also ‘tasteful’ looking solid bodies.

it depends. If you want to play progressive contemporary originals, I think you could get away with more…. But there’s an image thing going on. The jazz guy turns up with the f hole guitar to show they are not about to kick on the gain and bust out the 0 3 5. The f holes show you are a ‘real musician’ haha

its soo dumb. But thems the breaks sadly.

[jazznylon]

well I think those clustered voicings sound very cool. I certainly see value in the tuning scheme and it sounds distinct from the usual voicings guitarists play.

do you need a 10 string, or could you get by with a 7 string for playing in a band?

I don’t know E G# C E G# C E would cover the standard guitar range. You don’t really need the basses in that setting.

There are a few jazz boxes that have seven strings which would avoid the hurtful comments haha. There’s also ‘tasteful’ looking solid bodies.

it depends. If you want to play progressive contemporary originals, I think you could get away with more…. But there’s an image thing going on. The jazz guy turns up with the f hole guitar to show they are not about to kick on the gain and bust out the 0 3 5. The f holes show you are a ‘real musician’ haha

its soo dumb. But thems the breaks sadly.

Thanks! Yeah I think a 7 string jazz box would work better at least in the image department. The only thing that sucks about the 6 string in my tuning is the loss of range. A 7 string would remedy that and regain that lost range back funnily enough to the range of 6 string standard. But I think I'm content with the 6 string regardless

[oldane]

In a traditional jazz setting, the lower strings could make mud with the bassist.

OTOH, if the bassist solos in an upper octave, you could play bass behind him and that would sound good. Tal Farlow did it with electronics.

If there's a piano, I don't know what you do with the extra strings in playing jazz standards, but probably a creative enough player could figure out something.

If there's no piano, you'd have enormous flexibility harmonically, if you could figure out what to play.

And, you'd have to get to genius level on string damping, or forget about open strings and use a Van Eps style device. Google Van Eps string damper.

If it's solo guitar, it would be limited only by your imagination and technique. I'd be curious to hear it.

I very much agree. A 10 string guitar takes A LOT of caution, creativity, overview,experience and deliberate holding back if it is to work in an band situation. And of course one must be able to play such a beast, but the OP seems to have that covered already. Me, I find six strings more than enough for my modest ability and most of the times I use small chords that doesn't use up the full potential of those six strings. In fact, I might have been content with a four string guitar.

Art Tatum was the undisputed virtuoso master of the solo piano and trio settings, but he was not regarded as the best when it came to comping behind others because he played too much. It often sounded like he wes trying to outrace the musician who he was comping for and the net result could be somewhat frantic. The album he did with Ben Webster may be an exception from that, because there it actually seemed to work pretty well - likely because Websters ballad style was so different and much more sparse so it contrasted rather than clashed with Tatums busy playing. Guitarist Everett Barksdale, who replaced Tiny Grimes in Tatums trio, once said that he never found out what Tatum wanted him for because he (Tatum) actually played it all himself - and then more.

As for the Van Eps style string damper, one of daughters hairbands, a strip of velcro vedged between the strings and the fretboard, or whatever, works just as fine.

[Peter C]

OK, so if you're looking at a 10 string because that's what you're used to, fair enough. Bear in mind that the guitar you posted has fanned frets, though people generally say it's not a biggie coming from the standard arrangement (never tried one). Also, the pickups are likely to be on the hot side.....

Scale length, well AFAIR, Narciso Yepes' 10 string looked pretty standard scale when I saw him close-up years ago and his lowest note was like C2 (à la cello). Your guitar looks similar to that and the electric is up to 30" (don't they use these for "djent", or some sh*t like that?), so big difference there (?)

Flatwound strings will be gentler on your fingers, but not the plain steels in the set

Roland JC-120=good, IMO

I don't think dual-brained Charlie Hunter is relevant to this conversation and, btw, I think he came from 8 strings to 7 and occasionally plays a 6.

Anyway, get a 7 string Tele and string and tune to taste

PS post your first band rehearsal, would be interested to hear it, really!

[jazznylon]

On the other extreme end there's the tinkertar. Time to play bebop on one string...



I like the pizza one

[jazznylon]

OK, so if you're looking at a 10 string because that's what you're used to, fair enough. Bear in mind that the guitar you posted has fanned frets, though people generally say it's not a biggie coming from the standard arrangement (never tried one). Also, the pickups are likely to be on the hot side.....

Scale length, well AFAIR, Narciso Yepes' 10 string looked pretty standard scale when I saw him close-up years ago and his lowest note was like C2 (à la cello). Your guitar looks similar to that and the electric is up to 30" (don't they use these for "djent", or some sh*t like that?), so big difference there (?)

Flatwound strings will be gentler on your fingers, but not the plain steels in the set

Roland JC-120=good, IMO

I don't think dual-brained Charlie Hunter is relevant to this conversation and, btw, I think he came from 8 strings to 7 and occasionally plays a 6.

Anyway, get a 7 string Tele and string and tune to taste

PS post your first band rehearsal, would be interested to hear it, really!

Yes thats pretty much also why I was looking for an electric 10 string since I already spent quite a bit of time on my 10 string classical. I don't want to go losing all that progress. That said I'm not big on the fanned frets thing. I tried one before and it felt so weird to play lol. Though with enough time one might get used to it hopefully. Never recorded my band rehearsal unfortunatedly

[sgcim]

Mine is also a sadowsky tele with two humbuckers so come on horn players.

don’t you know anything???

If a horn player told me what guitar I had to play, I'd tell him to shove it.

[sgosnell]

I like the pizza one

Bob Benedetto built a pizzar, a solid-body shaped like a slice of pizza, but reversed, with the crust end near the tailpiece. The top looks like a pepperoni pizza slice. There's a DVD of it at the Long Island Guitar Show, with Jimmy Bruno playing it. I have the DVD, but I can't find it on the internet. It looks a little awkward to use, but it sounds fine.

[jazznylon]

Bob Benedetto built a pizzar, a solid-body shaped like a slice of pizza, but reversed, with the crust end near the tailpiece. The top looks like a pepperoni pizza slice. There's a DVD of it at the Long Island Guitar Show, with Jimmy Bruno playing it. I have the DVD, but I can't find it on the internet. It looks a little awkward to use, but it sounds fine.

I looked it up online, this must be it I think



Truly a work of art!

I recently realized my nail gets chipped while using the archtop even with flatwound strings put on so playing electric seems like a no go for me. Guess I have to stay true to my username

I also figured out how to get max volume on my amp without getting feedback using my 10 string classical. I managed to use it in the band to some success. Freddie Green Style rhythm playing and soloing its audible however if I comp using guide tones (regular fingerpicking) while the piano player is also comping I get lost in the mix. The pianist was also using my amp so maybe that could be a reason why. Next time though he'll use a different amp so hopefully things will get better from then on

[Oscar67]

OP, at least it’s worth a try so just do it. Better to fail trying than not try. There are plenty of conventional jazz bands left for those who won’t dig it. (Oh, and perhaps check out Martin Taylor’s Two For The Road album for an unlikely pairing of sounds that works very well indeed.)

[Peter C]

Wait, you said guitar sax and bass but now there's a pianist?

Anyway, if the 10 string classical is "your" instrument (you don't have to use all 10 strings, right?), and you're having volume/feedback issues, there may be ways of amplifying it more efficiently. I don't know if you mentioned whether you have some kind piezo bridge pickup but anyway, you could start a thread asking for tips on this.

Don't forget to post a clip of your "10 string classical guitar jazz quartet"! I definitely want to see some "Freddie Green style" comping on that instrument

[Christian Miller]

If you are playing the same thing as the pianist you will tend to disappear… not a bad thing necessarily.

[jazznylon]

Wait, you said guitar sax and bass but now there's a pianist?

Anyway, if the 10 string classical is "your" instrument (you don't have to use all 10 strings, right?), and you're having volume/feedback issues, there may be ways of amplifying it more efficiently. I don't know if you mentioned whether you have some kind piezo bridge pickup but anyway, you could start a thread asking for tips on this.

Don't forget to post a clip of your "10 string classical guitar jazz quartet"! I definitely want to see some "Freddie Green style" comping on that instrument

Yes now there's a pianist. I should call it something else (don't want to besmirch Freddie's name lol). But anyways here's a short clip

OP, at least it’s worth a try so just do it. Better to fail trying than not try. There are plenty of conventional jazz bands left for those who won’t dig it. (Oh, and perhaps check out Martin Taylor’s Two For The Road album for an unlikely pairing of sounds that works very well indeed.)

Thanks for the recommendation!

If you are playing the same thing as the pianist you will tend to disappear… not a bad thing necessarily.

I see. Maybe I should double the melody with the sax when the pianist comes over. I can hear myself better in the higher register