Best present value archtop for Kenny Burrell tone in early 60's?

[Webby]

I'll second all the Broadway with flat wounds suggestions l. I love mine!
I think a huge part of that sound is that bit of breakup, so you might want to look into some kind of dirt pedal.
The usual suspects on here are
-Nocturne Jr. Barnyard
-Combs JJ 150
-TC electronics mojomojo
-Joyo/Harley Benton American Sound

I've heard people getting into that territory with all of those.

Paul

[Lkdog]

I'll second all the Broadway with flat wounds suggestions l. I love mine!
I think a huge part of that sound is that bit of breakup, so you might want to look into some kind of dirt pedal.
The usual suspects on here are
-Nocturne Jr. Barnyard
-Combs JJ 150
-TC electronics mojomojo
-Joyo/Harley Benton American Sound

I've heard people getting into that territory with all of those.

Paul

I use the Axe FX 3 which has a ton of effects pedals, compressors, etc available to use in the chain so should be able to add that slight breakup you mention.

[mr. beaumont]

I'll second all the Broadway with flat wounds suggestions l. I love mine!
I think a huge part of that sound is that bit of breakup, so you might want to look into some kind of dirt pedal.
The usual suspects on here are
-Nocturne Jr. Barnyard
-Combs JJ 150
-TC electronics mojomojo
-Joyo/Harley Benton American Sound

I've heard people getting into that territory with all of those.

Paul

This is a good point-- not as much on Midnight Blue, but on a lot of Kenny's earlier records, that amp was cranked! His hardest hit notes definitely had a little "hair" to them.

This is actually exactly the sound I go for, and there's lots of ways to get it-- the above mentioned pedals, or pretty much any modeling amp can do it too...and of course, a tube amp (but maybe one with a master volume unless you want to piss off the neighbors)

[AllanAllen]

I have played a nice '59 VOS ES 175 that my friend has so am familiar with them.
How do you think they differ?

The Broadway is 25.5” scale with a 17” bout.

[Lkdog]

The Broadway is 25.5” scale with a 17” bout.

Ahhhh, I forgot about that. Thanks.

[stevus]

Have you played such guitars with floaters before, for a longer time and really got to know them ? Have you used them at stage volume level or only at home ?

On several dates in the (earlier) 60's Kenny also used his D'Angelico with a DeArmond 1100 floater but he had to tape up the F-holes
on live gigs. My experience : with a built-in humbucker you get a more "electric" sound whereas a floater (especially the DeArmond models)
will add some more "air" since they tend to be microphonic - some more , others less so.

Indeed, in the course of the 1960s he changed from an L5 to the D'Angelico because he felt the 18 inch body more comfortable to play. On that particular guitar he used light gauge D'Angelico flatwound strings, with a medium 2nd and 6th, because he felt these two strings too loose in the light gauge. As he also said in a March 1970 Guitar Player Magazine interview, he used a Fender Twin Reverb, because: 'the amp is half of the instrument'.

[gcb]

KB recorded with different archtops, some equipped with P90s, others with HBs, or floating DeArmonds. He also recorded with a flat top. In 1966, under the name of "Buzzy Bavarian" he joined Herbie Hancock Bob Cranshaw and others to record on this Kai Winding LP: Dirty Dog

Different tones but one Kenny Burrell.

So with your budget I would aim to a used MIA Tele, set it up with 011 flatwounds, and carry on from there to approximate the tones you like.

[Lkdog]

KB recorded with different archtops, some equipped with P90s, others with HBs, or floating DeArmonds. He also recorded with a flat top. In 1966, under the name of "Buzzy Bavarian" he joined Herbie Hancock Bob Cranshaw and others to record on this Kai Winding LP: Dirty Dog

Different tones but one Kenny Burrell.

So with your budget I would aim to a used MIA Tele, set it up with 011 flatwounds, and carry on from there to approximate the tones you like.

I have Gibson LP R9, an ES 335 '64 Reissue, a PRS DGT, and a MIA Strat.
Been mostly a blues player my whole life.

Nothing from preventing me from setting up one of those for more of a jazz tone. Have done that at times before using heavier gauge strings.

Also have had an Es175, and an Ibanez AF105 before for a short time.


Was looking to get a more proper archtop again.

[Lkdog]

OK, kind of looking at these three options. All in the $700-$900 range.

1) A Ibanez PM2- all stock
2) A Epi Broadway with upgraded pickups, wiring, and hardware
3) A Epi ES 175 Premium

I am sure any of them would be good.

[ThatRhythmMan]

OK, kind of looking at these three options. All in the $700-$900 range.

1) A Ibanez PM2- all stock
2) A Epi Broadway with upgraded pickups, wiring, and hardware
3) A Epi ES 175 Premium

I am sure any of them would be good.

Out of all of those, I think you’ll have the best shot at achieving the desired goal with the Broadway. I think you’ll be fine with any of them as long as you find a nice playing example though.

The ES-175 will have the best stock pickups IMO (Gibson 57 Classics).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lawson-stone]

Out of all of those, I think you’ll have the best shot at achieving the desired goal with the Broadway. I think you’ll be fine with any of them as long as you find a nice playing example though.

The ES-175 will have the best stock pickups IMO (Gibson 57 Classics).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just make sure the original pickups are still on the guitar! For a while there when the Eli ES175 Premium was heavily discounted, people were buying them and replacing the pickups, then re-selling. Caveat Emptor!

[ruger9]

Took me years, but I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Loar LH-309-VS.

Watched a bunch of YouTube videos of the Loar and Godin Kingpin P90, listening for the ACOUSTIC tone, and read all the owner reviews of both I could find, again concentrating on ACOUSTIC tone. What I heard in the demos was the Godin has a more Manouche tone, more like Django than Charlie Christian... my guess is based on the cherry wood and 3/4" thinner body. And that jives with my memory of the one I played several years go, which was "sounds more like a flat top than an archtop)... again, I'm talking acoustically.... electrically they sound basically identical with the neck P90 and full-hollow body.

Should be here thursday. I'm not a big fan of v-necks or 1-3/4" nuts... I should know pretty instantly if I'm going to keep it. I really love the Archtop Tribute model, but I'm not prepared to spend $2500 on an archtop yet. But that's my ideal, with the 1-11/16" nut and CC pickup.

[mr. beaumont]

Took me years, but I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Loar LH-309-VS.

Watched a bunch of YouTube videos of the Loar and Godin Kingpin P90, listening for the ACOUSTIC tone, and read all the owner reviews of both I could find, again concentrating on ACOUSTIC tone. What I heard in the demos was the Godin has a more Manouche tone, more like Django than Charlie Christian... my guess is based on the cherry wood and 3/4" thinner body. And that jives with my memory of the one I played several years go, which was "sounds more like a flat top than an archtop)... again, I'm talking acoustically.... electrically they sound basically identical with the neck P90 and full-hollow body.

Should be here thursday. I'm not a big fan of v-necks or 1-3/4" nuts... I should know pretty instantly if I'm going to keep it. I's really love the Archtop Tribute model, but I'm not prepared to spend $2500 on an archtop yet. But that's my ideal, with the 1-11/16" nut and CC pickup.

I hope it works out for you. I played one years ago and thought the pickup was absolutely terrible, but pickups are a relatively easy upgrade if you like the guitar in general.

[ruger9]

I hope it works out for you. I played one years ago and thought the pickup was absolutely terrible, but pickups are a relatively easy upgrade if you like the guitar in general.

Yeah, already have plans to contact Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe for one of rail P90s... sort of like a CC in a dogear casing.

The big thing will be the neck. If I don't get on with it, I'll return it and order a Kingpin. It's really the only other game in town when it comes to sub-$1000 ES-125 types. And the Godin is surely more beautiful (IMO, but I'm not stuck on "vintage style" anything)

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, already have plans to contact Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe for one of rail P90s... sort of like a CC in a dogear casing.

The big thing will be the neck. If I don't get on with it, I'll return it and order a Kingpin. It's really the only other game in town when it comes to sub-$1000 ES-125 types. And the Godin is surely more beautiful (IMO, but I'm not stuck on "vintage style" anything)

I do still like my Kingpin. And the Kingpin P-90 is very good.

It's an interesting sound unplugged. As someone who plays a flat top a lot, I don't think it is flat top like, but it also doesn't sound like an archtop totally either. In person, I don't think it has many characteristics of a SelMac/Django style guitar at all. It has a decent amount of volume, but I don't think I could use it unplugged as a rhythm box in a band situation (might work in a guitar/bass/piano trio)

It's kind of like an archtop with less midrange bump. It's a pretty pleasant sound, actually.

I don't remember much of the 309's acoustic tone, been a long time since I played that. I did own a 600 for a while that was an acoustic MACHINE...but in the end I couldn't get along with the V neck. I should have kept it and just played rhythm on it, as the V neck is GREAT for that, but it sounded so good I wanted to use it for other types of playing, and those were uncomfortable with the V neck for me. So I ended up getting frustrated with the guitar and not playing it.

[ruger9]

I do still like my Kingpin. And the Kingpin P-90 is very good.

It's an interesting sound unplugged. As someone who plays a flat top a lot, I don't think it is flat top like, but it also doesn't sound like an archtop totally either. In person, I don't think it has many characteristics of a SelMac/Django style guitar at all. It has a decent amount of volume, but I don't think I could use it unplugged as a rhythm box in a band situation (might work in a guitar/bass/piano trio)

It's kind of like an archtop with less midrange bump. It's a pretty pleasant sound, actually.

I don't remember much of the 309's acoustic tone, been a long time since I played that. I did own a 600 for a while that was an acoustic MACHINE...but in the end I couldn't get along with the V neck. I should have kept it and just played rhythm on it, as the V neck is GREAT for that, but it sounded so good I wanted to use it for other types of playing, and those were uncomfortable with the V neck for me. So I ended up getting frustrated with the guitar and not playing it.

Well, if I end up liking it enough to keep it, I would have no problem shaving the neck down ... I'm not worried about resale value, I want to PLAY the thing... and then if I end up playing it alot, maybe I'll get something like the Archtop Tribute.

[chris32895]

What about the Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II Pro? I see these for super low prices all the time and a lot of people seem to like them

[Lkdog]

NM

[jim777]

I did have a Heritage Super KB at one time, and while it's sound approached a Super 400, it was more acoustic to my ears.

If it was Red I'm going to have to ask for pics