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I find myself flush with cash, probably for the last time in my life, which means this could be my last chance to buy a proper jazz box. I don’t play jazz well and likely never will. I just want one.
Despite the fact that I live in Wes’s hometown, finding an uncommon guitar here isn’t easy. So, I searched this site for advice on buying online and didn’t really find much.
So let’s say I’m interested a particular model and I’ve read everything I can find here about the attributes of examples made at various times (pre-war vs nearly new vs “Norlin,” for instance). I’ve decided on a year range. On Reverb, I might find examples listed at $2000 or $6000 that sound almost identical in the descriptions.
What do you do to separate the good ones from the bad ones, assuming they’re all too far away to play?
Side note: what payment method do you prefer when buying?
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10-01-2023 03:15 PM
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I'm reluctant to buy anything without a 30 day return privilege.
Not only can't I tell in the store how I'm going to feel about a guitar or amp in the long run -- it takes me weeks, playing in different contexts, to reach a conclusion. And, even then, eventually I'm going to want something else (although I can spend years with a particular guitar as my main instrument).
The first thing that comes to mind is the exact size and contour of the neck. Even if the descriptions are identical and even if the model number is the same, the necks might not be identical. And, even if they were, how do you know you'll like it?
As far as sound goes, I think there's an argument that you can't tell what a guitar is going to sound like until it's set up properly. Years ago, my friends and I would sit in the store playing every example of the same model (all new 335s) and talking about which guitar sounded better. In retrospect, I suspect that some of the difference was setup not manufacture. Maybe it makes more sense for archtops.
Here's an example. For a long time I played the L5S. Mine had high frets (Warren Nunes style) and eventually I came to believe that I was playing out of tune because of the high frets and a heavy touch. I couldn't change my touch, so I moved on from the guitar. I didn't sell it. Recently, I played it and discovered that it didn't really go out of tune any more than my Comins GCS-1 with lower frets. The moral of the story: I couldn't figure out what was what with a guitar I'd played for years; how am I going to buy by mail?Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-01-2023 at 04:09 PM.
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When someone buys from my shop they get a trial period with no questions asked returns. I think that’s the only fair way to sell someone a guitar. I also try to discuss the purchase with discerning buyers ahead of time if possible so as to guide them to the guitar that makes the most sense. If I don’t have a guitar that’s a fit, I won’t hesitate to let the potential buyer know and make recommendations for the right guitar. I can even make recommendations concerning a lot of other shops.
I recommend working with someone who can provide all of those things and is knowledgeable enough about what they are selling to answer any questions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You live close enough to go directly to George Gruhn's and buy that Campellone that is for sale for $6000. You better move fast because I don't think it will last. Otherwise it will help if we knew exactly what guitar you wanted.
Originally Posted by StuartF
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Buy one from Chuck, our fellow forum member. He has lots of cool archtops for sale and, as mentioned, offers a non-questions-asked trial period. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Last edited by Hammertone; 10-02-2023 at 04:49 AM.
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Well the first thing is what are YOUR priorities? Are you looking for looks, playability or sound. That may seem a strange question, but all of the things I listed are reasons why many here own a particular archtop. Each of those categories would have a list of questions that go with. You may say all of the above, but I think that each at the very least, should be prioritized. We all value different things. As far as a payment goes, a credit card is a best choice. Pay-pal with a credit card associated with it is also acceptable. Originally Posted by StuartF
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Dang just go in and ask for George and tell him you want a jazz box. Give him a price range. The prices are fair. There are some very nice archtops from boutique manufacturers there, as well as Gruhn Guitars’ own model (which is a flattop, btw). Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Otherwise—check first on this forum. That’s where I found my 175 at a more than decent price.
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Buying sight unseen is a crapshoot, whether it's guitars or anything else. Buy from someone that will offer a trial period and a no questions asked return policy, as one of our regular sellers mentions above.
But be prepared to send it back if it's not right. No different than going to the imaginary well-stocked music store and picking up a guitar, playing it for a while, and then putting it back on the wall to check out another one. For the most part, those guitar shops don't exist anymore with a few notable exceptions, but you have to be near them to make use of that.
This is the future of expensive retail, I fear. Maybe even inexpensive retail. We have gotten very comfortable ordering things site unseen and sending them back if we decide we don't like them. There are entire business models predicated right around this. Main Street mom and pop businesses get it in the neck.
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I get that. I have guitars that look good and one or two that sound good. Playability is the hardest thing. As said above, that takes some time to discern. Originally Posted by skiboyny
Nashville and Chicago are both easy drives from here. To be honest, it hadn't even crossed my mind to make a road trip of it.
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If you do see something on Reverb, be patient. Many vendors pitch their prices high, but then offer large discounts when the item does not sell.
Last edited by Litterick; 10-01-2023 at 08:30 PM.
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"Buying without paying" is what I (mis)read,which immediately cought my attention and attracted me to this thread!!
Sorry. 
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As I am far away from everywhere (right next to nowhere) I buy sight unseen.
Last three expensive guitars were two from Gryphon and one from Hammertone (forum member, broker). All three guitars were exactly as advertised, priced fairly, and packaged for shipment with a full understanding of what we can expect from shippers.
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Up until recently, the nearest semi decent music store was 6 hours away. And even that one doesn't have any archtops. I take that back, they have one L-5 with a Bigsby. Weighs a ton. Where I previously lived it was even farther. If I could drive there I would but driving 12+ hours for something that might not pan out isn't a good use of my time.
Over the past 20 years I have purchased about 10 guitars without playing them. Either through Reverb, Ebay or an online music store. I have had only two problems and one was due to shipping damage and the other was a Fender custom shop build where they didn't follow the purchase specs. In that case, the Fender dealer took the guitar back and built another one matching the required specs. YMMV as some folks on this forum can't seem to purchase any guitars without some problem necessitating a return.
Before pulling the trigger, I do a lot of research on the seller and guitar. It doesn't take much time to separate the sellers/ merchants to avoid from the honest sellers. For me if there is even the hint of an issue, I avoid the seller. I'm sorry if the seller is new or just has a very small number of positive reviews but I'm not taking the chance. If they don't have positive feedback over multiple sales then I just avoid them. If at all possible, I talk to the seller and I ask them to send over detailed photos if those are not available on line. Some sellers do a phenomenal job with their pictures and other look like they took the photos with a 2000's flip phone. If they sound fishy over the phone or won't send detailed photos then I avoid. There are too many other vendors and guitars to chose from especially if one is looking for say a Gibson, Martin etc.
I only buy from vendors who have a reasonable return policy and I will return if there is undisclosed issues such as finish/ structural issues. In turn I don't abuse that policy e.g. I won't return a guitar because of setup issues. Unfortunately today thanks primarily to Amazon and Guitar Center, some folks think these small shop owners/sellers can just eat the cost of returns for trivial issues. I have actually seen people discuss on the forums how they bought a guitar or amp just to use for one gig then they returned it. My guitar buying days are past me so now I am in the process of selling guitars and amps that I don't play any longer.
I have had good experiences in the past with Sound Pure, Guitar's and Jazz, Elderly and Dream Guitars.Last edited by rob taft; 10-01-2023 at 09:35 PM.
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Buy from a long time forum member on the classified section of this forum.
I have done this multiple times with great results. Better results than I have had from dealers or Ebay/Reverb, in fact.
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The road trip would be great provided there are some guitars you're interested in are available. The internet puts the world at your disposal. I've had great luck buying site unseen, from both reverb and ebay. I've read plenty of people posts who have had bad experiences doing the same. I think it's all about communication and getting a feel for the person your talking to. Best of luck on whatever you decide. Originally Posted by StuartF
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The real problem with buying sight unseen is that different people have different interpretations of subjective terms. A few years ago, I was ready to buy a fine 20 year old archtop from a dealer I know well. But I thought I should see and play it first, just in case. I drove hours to do that, with cash in my pocket, only to discover that it needed frets and some other serious work despite being described to me on the phone as "like new". Yes, it was "playable" and it sounded great. But it wouldn't have held up for many gigs before frets were absolutely necessary, and the action was still too high with the bridge all the way down and the neck straight. And it was a consignment piece whose owner would not come down in price to cover proper repairs by the luthier plus the slight devaluation they would cause. Had I not gone to see it, I would have bought and returned it with all the hassle that can bring if the owner claims it was "not like that when I left it at the shop".
There wa a 7 string Foster Basin Street on our Sale forum off and on for over a year a while ago. I offered to fly down to New Orleans with the money to meet the seller at the airport so I could inspect and play the guitar before taking it home on the next plane. All I asked was that he send me some decent pictures of the entire guitar including frets, and that he provide me with whatever history and information he had on it - how he got it, how long he'd owned it, any knowledge of prior owners, repairs, maintenance, current needs etc. He ignored that request but contacted me many months later to see if I was still interested. He still would not send me good pics or any information, so I wrote him and his guitar off.
I'd only take a chance like that from a very reputable dealer with whom I or someone I know well has done business before and been satisfied - and only with a decent, ironclad return privilege.
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I've bought 1 guitar on ebay, 1 used without trying from Guitar Center, 2 from Reverb, and one from a fellow forum denizen. I've also sold in all those places (though only effects on ebay, not guitars). I've had some shipping hiccups, but never any issues with the guitars themselves. I think that is probably the most common experience, but it probably only takes one bad experience to sour pretty much anyone on the endeavor.
Anyway, as to how to do it with confidence, I think the key is to ask a lot of questions about condition, ideally getting measurements of the the action and relief, confirmation that there's room for adjustment in the truss rod and the bridge (with photos of the bridge), and additional photos of anything you can't quite make out in the ad. If the seller balks at any of this, move on. But all any of that can do is establish condition and a basis for a return if it arrives in a different state. Whether you'll actually like the guitar is not something you can reliably predict. To some extent you can make an educated guess by at least trying a few examples of the same model. But if you're not willing to risk not bonding with the guitar, don't buy without trying.
One of the things that stood out to me in the OP is how to distinguish what's good when there's a price range of $2-6K. I think to get into that question, I think we'd really have to know what models we're talking about. E.g., in today's market I'd be very suspicious of an ES-175 or L5 for $2k. That's so far below the bottom of the market for ones in decent condition that it makes me think either disastrous condition or fake. But for other guitars it might reflect just the normal range of values where "collectible" vs "player" is a factor.
Regarding various eras of Gibsons, my experience is that there are two problematic ones: 1) mid- to late-60s, which often have very skinny necks. 2) roughly 2016-2019 (end of Henry J, beginning of the new guys); lots of quality problems and some oddball spec changes on some models. I would not buy anything from those periods without trying first. Other than that, I actually don't think there are "bad" Gibson eras with electric guitars. Sure, there are differences in spec and Norlins in general aren't as pretty as what came before and after, but I don't see anything other than those two periods as inherently risky as an online buy.
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I've never quite understood these questions. I guess it's nice to know if it's the original owner but why does it matter how someone got it or how long someone's owned it other than from a repair/maintenance perspective. Would that affect a purchase? Isn't the current condition the only thing that matters? Just curious. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Inquiries about prior ownership (and checking that out) can help one avoid buying a stolen guitar. IMO, anyone who buys a guitar that is or even might be stolen, without doing some due diligence is racking up some major bad Karma points. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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If the instrument has had significant repairs (e.g., a broken/repaired headstock), It's helpful to know whether the seller had the repair done and has lived with it for a period of time. To me, "a previous owner had the headstock break and got repair done" and "I had the repair done by [well known luthier] 10 years ago, which I can document, and it is stable and plays as good as new" give very different levels of confidence. Ownership history is probably less important for overall condition or to know the details and timing of more routine repairs (e.g., re-fretting), but every little bit of info helps. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Ok, agree that more info is always good, but other than the possibility of theft where its relatively easy to discern in normal correspondence if someone just got it and doesn't know the first thing about it and the maintenance/repair history which is definitely important, what's the advantage?
Another one is why are you selling it which seems to be a personal question.
Not saying you guys are wrong, just trying to understand the thinking behind these inquiries.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
how he got it, how long he'd owned it, any knowledge of prior owners, repairs, maintenance, current needs etc.
I haven't bought sight unseen from CL or Reverb, but I would think enquiries along these lines might start a discussion that could help suss out if there was something funky going on. These things are pretty easy for a bad seller to lie about. You may be able to find an answer that doesn't hold water. A red flag.
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If the guitar is clearly in good condition with no indications of structural damage/repair, it probably doesn't matter. But if there is evidence of repair, it's better to know more about it. How the seller deals with the question can tell you whether that's someone you can risk dealing with. If you say "I'm a little concerned about [headstock repair, crack repair, etc.] I'd like to have it looked at by my luthier as a condition of my keeping it. If s/he questions the repair, would you be willing to accept a return?" How the seller replies potentially tells you a lot. That aside, the discount that comes with a structural repair is only a discount if it doesn't have to be repaired again. Getting as much info as you can about the history of a repair helps assess that. Originally Posted by wintermoon
A buyer asking why could potentially be a mechanism to get the seller to cough up negative info not included in the listing. A seller volunteering a reason for selling could be intended to head off any doubts about the condition or quality of the item in buyer's minds. Personally, I don't care what the seller's reasons are and don't think asking would yield useful info, but obviously some people think otherwise. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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A wise forum member, J-dub, once said, “you makes your choice, and pays your money.”
Perhaps I’m in the minority here. I’ve purchased over 100 arch tops. That’s not a misprint.
First, I didn’t expect to have everything in my favor while making a purchase. Call me a heckuva dice roller, but I never played a single one before purchase. And I didn’t have a single return guarantee.
So how is it that I was able to navigate this landscape without, problems? I never experienced any, yet I understood if I desired a guitar at a great price I had to make purchases on a national level.
I purchased from Reverb, eBay, Craigslist, private sellers, personal sellers, you name it I bought it.
I always purchased via PayPal but with an Amex card. That was my only backup plan. And yet I never had to use Amex as a backup.
If you desire to avail yourself to more options, other than local in hand options, play before purchase options, you must avail yourself to all of the marketplace. And who knows, you could avail yourself to a most remarkable guitar at a price you didn’t expect.
Food for thought.
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The specific answers are not very useful most of the time. But whether and how a seller responds to those questions (or, in fact, any questions) tells me a lot about him or her. When buying at a distance, you're definitely buying the seller as well as the guitar. Any answer that makes sense is fine, including "I don't know", as long as it comes in a pleasant response that doesn't ignore my questions completely. I find such questions helpful to get a picture of the relationship between the seller and the guitar, and it's even better if the answers come with such info about prior owners too. If there's a record of repairs and maintenance, so much the better. And asking about what it might need now or soon can tell me a lot about the seller's knowledge and experience. But, as you point out, the only directly relevant information to be gained relates to repairs and maintenance plus any insight the seller can offer (intentionally or not) into its true current condition. Originally Posted by wintermoon
In my experience, a seller who doesn't care about the instrument should set off alarm bells. Too many guitars are bought just to be flipped, and this often makes for a risky purchase.
Knowing how much it was played can suggest how much it will take to make it whole again - if it was gigged 3 or 4 times a week for the last 15 years without a refret or other serious maintenance, it's probably time. If it's been to a luthier or tech mutiple times in the last few years, there's probably an issue. The better the instrument, the more useful this info is to me. I stopped pursuing that Foster Basin Street because the seller totally ignored my questions. His sale post included only low res pics of a few parts of the guitar and absolutely no useful information. His email replies were all the same - "it's perfect and you'd better hurry because I have several others interested in it". I would have loved to have it, but a guitar like that can be a money pit (or worse) if it has problems. Interestingly, it appears that none of those interested parties was sufficiently interested to actually buy it in over a year.
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