The Benefits of Sh*t Gear

[NSJ]

Every drawback has a silver lining!

[wintermoon]

like the old joke about the guy that left his banjo in the backseat of his car, came back to find the window smashed and found 2 banjos in there. [if you like you can substitute trombone etc]

[mr. beaumont]

I left my Martin out on the table in my backyard last week when my kid called from his buddy's house around the corner, asking if I could bring over his swim goggles.

I was gone maybe 5 minutes, but when I got back to my backyard, I realized it was 5 minutes too many--there was a bluegrass jam going on.

[osloutah]

Every drawback has a silver lining!

Yeah man, unless you're a banjo or viola player.

What's the difference between a viola and a coffin? The coffin has the dead person on the inside.

[Freddy23]

What’s the difference between a banjo and a trampoline?

You take your shoes off to jump on a trampoline.

[DawgBone]

I used to have that brand allegiance mentality until one night a dude with a squier blew my doors off at a band tryout in Nashville. "Shit" gear plus great player=doesn't matter.

[tbeltrans]

I used to have that brand allegiance mentality until one night a dude with a squier blew my doors off at a band tryout in Nashville. "Shit" gear plus great player=doesn't matter.

But if I am going to be the not-so-great player, I might as well do it with style (as he whips out his Gibson Citation...).

Tony

[rpjazzguitar]

A few years ago a guy brought over a very expensive classical guitar.

He handed it to the bandleader, a pianist who was also a pretty good guitarist.

He played a few things and the guitar sounded totally ordinary.

Then, he handed it back to the owner who started playing -- whereupon the guitar sounded like a chorus of angels.

The owner had fingernails and the bandleader didn't. I think it was mostly that.

The point is that, in some situations, expensive gear makes a difference and in other situations, not so much.

I doubt very much if I could tell an Epiphone from a Gibson LP in a blindfold test.

[Kirk Garrett]

I used to have that brand allegiance mentality until one night a dude with a squier blew my doors off at a band tryout in Nashville. "Shit" gear plus great player=doesn't matter.

Some Squiers are pretty good, even before you modify them.

[tbeltrans]

A few years ago a guy brought over a very expensive classical guitar.

He handed it to the bandleader, a pianist who was also a pretty good guitarist.

He played a few things and the guitar sounded totally ordinary.

Then, he handed it back to the owner who started playing -- whereupon the guitar sounded like a chorus of angels.

The owner had fingernails and the bandleader didn't. I think it was mostly that.

The point is that, in some situations, expensive gear makes a difference and in other situations, not so much.

I doubt very much if I could tell an Epiphone from a Gibson LP in a blindfold test.

Interesting observation. While I can't dispute the advantage of fingernails, I also know that classical training in technique goes a long way to getting the most out of a classical guitar. You said that the band leader was a pretty good guitarist, so maybe he had that technique too.

Anyway, I remember sitting in The Podium in Minneapolis on Saturday mornings and listening to people come in and play some of their selection of decent quality classical guitars. I could easily hear the difference between those who had classical training (U of M classical guitar students) and those who didn't. By comparison, those who didn't sounded anemic compared to those who had the training and had put in the hours of practice on such technique. Those folks could make the same classical guitar fill the room with sound. That was when I realized I would never be able to do that because I readily admit I don't have the sustained discipline to put in that kind of work, that intensely, for that long a period of time.

Tony

[rpjazzguitar]

Interesting observation. While I can't dispute the advantage of fingernails, I also know that classical training in technique goes a long way to getting the most out of a classical guitar. You said that the band leader was a pretty good guitarist, so maybe he had that technique too.

Anyway, I remember sitting in The Podium in Minneapolis on Saturday mornings and listening to people come in and play some of their selection of decent quality classical guitars. I could easily hear the difference between those who had classical training (U of M classical guitar students) and those who didn't. By comparison, those who didn't sounded anemic compared to those who had the training and had put in the hours of practice on such technique. Those folks could make the same classical guitar fill the room with sound. That was when I realized I would never be able to do that because I readily admit I don't have the sustained discipline to put in that kind of work, that intensely, for that long a period of time.

Tony

My impression was that it was fingernails, but it might have been technique. I couldn't tell. The point stands though -- it may take some skill to really bring out what an instrument is capable of.

[tbeltrans]

My impression was that it was fingernails, but it might have been technique. I couldn't tell. The point stands though -- it may take some skill to really bring out what an instrument is capable of.

Fully agree.

Tony

[NSJ]

Here’s me with Charlie Byrd’s fully restored 1928 Hermann Hauser classical guitar, at the workshop of Richard Bruné, in Evanston, IL (from a few years ago: they moved to Wauconda, IL since then).

Byrd was, above all, a gigging musician. When he got the guitar in the 1950s, he immediately commissioned someone to put some sort of mic or pickup on it. They apparently did a bad job. But the guitar I saw looked spotless! I guess that’s what “full restoration” means. :0

It was a very fine sounding guitar, for sure. And I’m sure someone with nails will sound way better on it. It’s certainly better than a dead sounding $200 cheapo factory made guitar. (I think the poly finish kills the sound of those, if they ever had one, to begin with). Any top classical guitar is French polished.


I bought a very moderate hand-made Spanish flamenco guitar from Richard Bruné, costing like $2500. It certainly did not have all these extra zeros on the price tag, like Charlie Byrd’s axe. I still have that guitar. It’s only one of three main six string guitars I still have.

I wonder if they were able go sell the 1928 Hermann Hauser. Probably. I wonder if it being Charlie Byrd’s main axe added to the price? Maybe.

[NSJ]

On the subject of great musicians and sh*t guitars: my teacher was one of Joe Pass’ best friends. Joe would come to Chicago and visit him and his two first cousins (who also lived in Chicago). The four of them would have a grand time. My teacher was a pall bearer at Joe’s funeral.

Joe would come in, and demand that he play some classical guitar. Every time, Joe would say, “man, what you play is real art, man, and what I play is sh*t”. He was uniquely self-deprecating that way. Everyone knows he was a Master of Masters. Jack said that it was only at the end of his life, as he was dying from cancer, Joe finally realized that what he had was “a true gift”.

Joe also had a tendency of picking up crappy guitars and tying to play them. Jack would often respond, “man, put that P.O.S. Down, it has the tonal qualities of a god damn ukulele!”

[st.bede]

I used to have that brand allegiance mentality until one night a dude with a squier blew my doors off at a band tryout in Nashville. "Shit" gear plus great player=doesn't matter.

The other side is, that it was his inexpensive gear, or that he knew how to dial things in.

My experience is that, I can see an guitarist who has some real chops, but sounds horrendous.

Just yesterday I saw a guitarist in a blues band, that played fine, but his tone hurt me in deep unspeakable traumatic ways… that was before he turned on his wha… honestly, I have no idea what he was thinking… I do not even know how to get a wha to sound that bad, thin and shrill. I did not see what he was using… who knows.

There is a whole art form in getting something to sound good.

[Christian Miller]

For years the mighty Jim Mullen played an inexpensive Aria Pro jazz box into a Gallien Kruger bass amp

(I think he’s using an AER compact 60 in the second clip)

Thise aren’t cheap amps - I think the amp is the thing you don’t want to economise on in my experience, although a Fender Hot Rod works well enough for gigs imo.

From my impoverished days I can say cheap gear is perfectly giggable and has been for decades.

So if I had to put together a budget jazz rig I’d probably go for a Far Eastern laminate like one of the cheaper D’Angelicos or Ibanez Artcores or maybe a tele with neck hum-bucker (if I could find one) and one of those cheaper fender valve amps. And it would be absolutely fine. I did a bunch of gigs flying with an Ibanez AF85 (which I checked) into various rented Fenders (mostly hot rods) and it was better than fine. I got compliments on my Toan.

I did have a Gibson pickup in the Ibanez but tbh I doubt it made that much difference.

I ussd to gig a 80s Fender Squier, which was a decent guitar, but I got annoyed by the comments. I felt it was a distraction - ‘you play well despite that cheap guitar’ sort of thing.

OTOH Jim can play whatever he likes and people will still book him for gigs - for a player trying to build a reputation it can send a good signal if you turn up with professional gear that people have seen other pros use. Silly I know, but it is a thing. If they see Gibson on the headstock it sends a message. And I do think it makes a difference sonically obviously - just less than people (esp guitar players) suppose.

[NSJ]

A good-sounding jazz box can be had for not much money these days—one of the most famous ones I know has blue tape on it, and its practioner has been playing professional restaurant gigs with it for decades in Ann Arbor, MI Electric guitar is a bit different than classical guitar, in that regard. Ed Bickert proved that a cheap plank can sound GREAT, world-class.

It’s not like being a cello player, where even a mediocre sounding one can cost you 20 grand. We’re pretty lucky, in that regard.

[Woody Sound]

I doubt very much if I could tell an Epiphone from a Gibson LP in a blindfold test.

I think there would be difference in feel, action, etc, more than the sound.

[Woody Sound]

[QUOTE=NSJ;1280877] Every time, Joe would say, “man, what you play is real art, man, and what I play is sh*t”. He was uniquely self-deprecating that way. Everyone knows he was a Master of Masters. Jack said that it was only at the end of his life, as he was dying from cancer, Joe finally realized that what he had was “a true gift”.
/QUOTE]

I saw JP at a huge venue, over 2,000 people. After one of the tunes, of course, people were applauding like crazy. Then he said into the mic to the audience, "You really thought that was good??? I thought it was crap."

[Stringswinger]

Last Saturday, I played my regular solo gig using a Telecaster that I bought from a forum member for $150. I got lots of compliments from patrons. If I had brought one of my vintage D'Angelico guitars, all of which are worth at least 15K, I do not think it would have made a bit of difference to that audience.

High end gear just is not as important as a lot of us think it is.

[rpjazzguitar]

Jack Wilkins (who, sadly, passed recently), at the Zinc Bar, and Yotam Silberstein at Dizzy's both played the Comins GCS-1 and sounded great. That's about a $1900 guitar (it was $1500 pre covid). Not dirt cheap, and certainly not sh**, but not especially expensive for the instrument of a top pro player. My guess is that he had more valuable guitars, but he did not take them everywhere.

I play some of my gigs with my Yamaha Pacifica 012. I like the way it feels. It doesn't sound as good as the GCS-1 I usually use, except maybe for big band comping.

[tbeltrans]

A good-sounding jazz box can be had for not much money these days—one of the most famous ones I know has blue tape on it, and its practioner has been playing professional restaurant gigs with it for decades in Ann Arbor, MI Electric guitar is a bit different than classical guitar, in that regard. Ed Bickert proved that a cheap plank can sound GREAT, world-class.

It’s not like being a cello player, where even a mediocre sounding one can cost you 20 grand. We’re pretty lucky, in that regard.

Yessir! That is Jake Reichbart who sometimes posts here. He has had that gig for many, many years and has an endless list of tunes in his repertoire, and that isn't his only gig. He can also keep up with the most serious jazz practitioners around here. I have many of his lessons and really enjoy just listening to his enthusiasm when he teaches. In another thread, I talked about not having the luxury of learning anything and everything about music because we had to focus on preparing for the gigs every night of the week except Sunday. Since I don't do that anymore, I have the luxury of exploring what Robert Conti, Jake Reichbart, and Barry Greene have to teach - and, at my leisure as a retired old fart.

If you want a deep dive into arranging one tune for solo guitar for an entire 90 - 120 minute lesson, Jake is your guy. He does pop and jazz, a wide spectrum to be sure.

But to the OP's subject, when I was touring, I noticed that more often than not, the hobby players I met in each town seemed to have better guitars than we did. Many of us musicians stayed in the same hotels and got to know each other, so I saw plenty of working guys' guitars. That said, many of those guys did keep nice guitars at home. I didn't because I couldn't yet afford such an instrument until many years later.

In the early 2000s, I played out a bit locally and bought one of Conti's Peerless guitars for that, keeping my Gibson Johnny Smith at home after it got bumped a time or two on the bandstand. I would say that the Conti Peerless is actually quite a nice instrument, so it wasn't a "cheap" guitar, but it was much lower cost than replacing a Johnny Smith.

Tony

[entresz]

Jokes aside, I had Peavey Bandit 65 from the early/mid 1980s. I sold it a while back but kind of wish I kept it.... it actually sounded great and had a really nice spring reverb.

[DawgBone]

Jokes aside, I had Peavey Bandit 65 from the early/mid 1980s. I sold it a while back but kind of wish I kept it.... it actually sounded great and had a really nice spring reverb.

There are probably more Bandits out there doing stage duty than any other amp. Shoot there must be half a dozen peavey amps I'd love to have starting with a Classic 50 4x10 and a delta blues 1x15.

There is an incredible amount of quality amps in the $500-1000 dollar range and an incredible selection of great guitars in the 1000-2000 range. I never find any need or justification for anything more. I love serviceable, practical gear that can be easily replaced.

[Christian Miller]

Do not underestimate the Bandit!