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I was wondering if it could be the numbers produced. IE the rarity. That's what makes my old SG pricey: first year for the SG body and they only had Les Paul written on them for about a year.
Originally Posted by DawgBone
Maybe one of our Gibson scholars can tell us if they made as many Citations as Le Grands.
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08-11-2023 08:10 PM
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I am not a Gibson scholar, but I did google Citation and found a couple of sites that provided information indicating that there were 85 of these made over the years. So, based on the idea of rarity, I suppose that would drive (or keep) the price up. But also, these were apparently expensive guitars relative to the rest of the archtop line to begin with, so maybe that would add to the higher price years later (?). Originally Posted by ccroft
That said, I live near a shop that deals in vintage instruments (Willies American Guitars - Willie's Guitars). They have had a number of vintage guitars of various kinds over the years and I have had the opportunity to play some of these, from old Martins pre-Civil War and those famous pre-war Martins to a variety of archtops and solid body instruments. Some of these exceeded $30k or even up close to six figures. None of them touched me the way that my Citation does. I was never moved to want to purchase any of these other instruments based on vintage and rarity.
But then, as I mentioned in my previous post, guitars are such individual things. I am sure that those guitars I did play that didn't move me to want them, probably did that for somebody else. Maybe collectors would buy many of these instruments because of their rarity and associated value, but I would think for those who play them, the guitar itself would have to touch them in some way to move them to want to buy such an instrument.
Tony
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The first GB I ever saw was at the Sam Goody in center city Philly in the late ‘70s. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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I am not a Gibson scholar, but I found Gibson's 1994 description of the Citation: Originally Posted by ccroft
Gibson's Historic Collection would not be complete without the addition of the legendary Citation. This hand crafted guitar is as complex to produce as it is beautiful to see. Exquisite appointments such as multiple bound from [sic] and back headstock and “Cloud” inlays of pearl or abalone limit production of the Citation to twelve instruments per year.
Because no two Citations receive the same appointments, this guitar is an immediate collector‘s item. The Citation is truly a hand crafted Gibson instrument. The body is carved from hand-picked spruce and premium choice AAA grade figured maple. Intricate binding is applied to every part of this instrument. including the heel cap. The pickguard is fashioned out of the same AAA grade wood used on the Citation's body while the tailpiece is 24 carat gold plated. Finish is hand applied in thin layers exclusively by Gibson's top technicians.
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From Archtop.com
The initial release produced a scant eight Citation guitars between 1969 and 1971. According to most sources, the Citation was reissued between 1979 and 1983, in another run of about a dozen more examples. However, this remarkable instrument demonstrates that at least one Citation was produced the following year, as it is clearly labeled with a serial number from 1984. After a hiatus of almost a decade, the model was revived again in 1993, and has remained in production to the present day, on custom order only.
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Back in the 70's and 80's, I remember guitar makers describing the fanciest woods as AAA. Today we have AAAA and AAAAA being offered. Is there a standardized system in place by a recognized trade association regarding these classifications or is this just one upmanship in marketing?
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This is a great idea! My "A's" go up to 11! AAAAAAAAAAA Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Tony
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I bought my 1973 Martin D-35 in 1974. In 1976 had a local artist modify the pickguard per the attached photo. I was in the Boy Scouts and back then the French Fleur de lis was part of the scout logo.
Tom
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Only 85 made + 'no collection is complete without it' = premium pricing.
Only speaking about market and cost here. Obviously these are beautiful and excellent guitars in every way imaginable.
What people are willing to pay for something rare is going to set the price. How else to explain a $30K SG? Or a six figure Tele?
On veneer: grading is subjective. It's like trying to grade beauty. The A race. Remember the megahertz race? More is better.
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As an Army second lieutenant in 1970, my base pay was about $4,000 per year. Spending almost 8 months of my pay for a guitar was entirely out of the question. I did buy a Gibson that year, though. I got a J45, stamped as a second, from a store in Columbus, GA, for, IIRC, under $200. Even that was a lot of money, but I had just finished jump school and used my first parachute pay. I was making more money than I had ever thought possible.
I also bought a Ford Maverick, $2000 off the dealer's showroom floor. That was not the best purchase I ever made, but one lives and learns.
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Thank you for your service! A "second louie" no less. Originally Posted by sgosnell
As an Army second lieutenant in 1970, my base pay was about $4,000 per year. Spending almost 8 months of my pay for a guitar was entirely out of the question. I did buy a Gibson that year, though. I got a J45, stamped as a second, from a store in Columbus, GA, for, IIRC, under $200. Even that was a lot of money, but I had just finished jump school and used my first parachute pay. I was making more money than I had ever thought possible. I also bought a Ford Maverick, $2000 off the dealer's showroom floor. That was not the best purchase I ever made, but one lives and learns.
We Army "grunts" used to say that the only things that came out of the sky were "fools and bird s#@t", sorry to say. Later I learned how brave these guys really were.
Back to the thread...my first guitar was a Goya classical that I bought new at a guitar store in Seattle when I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, WA in 1970. I was a PFC then, so that was also a lot of money for me. I left it at home when I went to Vietnam. When I got back, I found somebody to trade for the Goya steel string version. Back then, everybody I knew who played guitar, only had one, and were happy to have that. Now I have a room full and none worth less than $3k or so. Spoiled, I tell ya!
Stateside (Ft. Lewis), it seemed that all the guys in the barracks played folk tunes except one guy from Hawaii. I can still clearly remember seeing him with a classical guitar (one of those cheap PX things) playing a solo fingerstyle/chord melody version of "Yesterday". That is what I wanted to do. I bugged him about lessons, but as nice a guy as he was, he wasn't interested. Oh well. At the time, I only knew two or three "cowboy" chords and this guy was playing up around the 5th fret. In Vietnam, I recall seeing a guitar or two (again, cheap PX nylon string specials) which people strummed and sang with. One of the chopper guys who dropped supplies had one too, but they came only periodically. I ran into a chopper pilot yesterday at the VA and we had a great chat. The one time I got to a large base at Bien Hoa, there were guys with electric guitars! It seemed like stateside, but I was only there for a day or two.
Tony
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$2,500 invested in the S&P 500 in 69 would have you half a million today. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
S&P 500 Returns since 1969Last edited by jhbpa; 08-12-2023 at 06:47 PM.
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Sure, but having an exceptional guitar to play for 54 years? That is priceless. Originally Posted by jhbpa
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I think great instruments aren’t always the fanciest models made as far as wood grade or ornamentation is concerned.
Generally I look for tone, playability and overall function over looks.
Citation Model was the fanciest Archtop in Gibsons catalog. And I’m sure most sounded excellent. But probably no better than an equivalent Johnny Smith, L-5C acoustic model.
In fact some of the best sounding Johnny Smith models had extremely plain maple,especially in the 1970’s and 80’s
For me personally I would rather buy Mark Campellone, John Buscarino, or Bryant Trenier build if I was spending $10K or more!
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I have a theory, unsubstantiated by scientific research, that plain, straight-grained wood is stronger, more stable, and sounds better than highly figured wood coveted by guitar collectors. My sample size isn't nearly large enough to make any actual claims, but it's a belief that I cling to. If nothing else, it provides me with less expensive guitars.
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I have a distinct preference for the bubble maple backed versions when it comes to Gibson. Since that’s a quilt, I’ve assumed that’s bigleaf maple. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Then you would really enjoy this (back of my Citation): Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Tony
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Not 100% certain but I think Gibson was sourcing Michigan rock or Eastern maple until at least the 70s but they probably get it from several areas these days including western big leaf. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Originally Posted by tbeltrans
Then you would really enjoy this (back of my Citation):
Tony
They somehow sound better to me, like this ‘35 Super 400.
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Quilt certainly happens in hard maple. It’s just not nearly as common as soft maple species. I’ve read that they were sourcing both Adirondack and Sitka spruce prewar, but I don’t remember seeing anything specific about the maple. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I know for sure they were using Michigan or Eastern maple back in the day, it's been years but I read it more than once. There was no need to go that far out if the area to get good maple. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Mine (1995 Citation) looks more like Cirrus clouds (I think) and that 1935 Super 400 looks more like bubbles when I look at the two pictures together. My first reaction to seeing my Citation was "bubbles" though. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
They somehow sound better to me, like this ‘35 Super 400.
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Edit: Since getting my Citation, I have seen pics of several more and mine is the only one that I have seen that has the "bubbles". I have no idea how many more Citations there may be with bubbles. Also, the only Citation I have heard is mine, so I have no point of comparison with any others.
Tony
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Two different species. Quilt is one of the variations of Acer macrophyllum (big leaf maple / Oregon maple). Bubble maple (more typically called blister maple) is different, and is one of the variations of Acer saccharum (hard maple / rock maple / sugar maple / eastern maple). If anyone can show an example of quilted maple that came from Acer saccharum, I would love to see it. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
There are a few other maple species as well, but only a few are used for carved archtop guitars, for a variety of reasons. Acer pseudoplantanus (European sycamore) is used mostly in ... Europe. Acer rubrum (red maple) is great, but is not that common, and it's harder to find trees that yield boards of sufficient width to use for archtop guitars. Acer saccharinum (silver maple) is soft - I have a few boards and wouldn't mind experimenting with it. Acer Nigrum (black maple), and a few others are out there as well, but are either too small, or too soft, or just not good-looking.
One of my Heritage archtops was built with red maple that the boys found somewhere in the Parsons St. building, in 2016.Last edited by Hammertone; 08-13-2023 at 05:26 AM.
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I don't claim to have any knowledge like this about woods, so I would not have the expertise to make any claims about what the real wood species is that was used for the back of my guitar. I called it "bubbles" when I first saw it and was later told by somebody that it is quilted maple. Seeing the pics of the two guitars together, it seems clear to me that my description of the wood used on the back of my guitar is not really "bubbles", but does look more like some storm clouds I have seen. So if these are not the same woods, I have no problem with that. Originally Posted by Hammertone
For me, I enjoy playing the guitar and that is good enough for me. As I mentioned in another thread about another subject, in forums we seem to go on and on about minutia and for those with the interest of the particular subject matter, that is probably quite fulfilling. I simply like my guitar and am glad to have it. I will leave the details about the woods used to the builders who select such woods.
Tony
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No doubt pretty wood like pretty people are prized and admired. And it sure helps to sell the product as well.
I think it’s good we have so many choices these days as well. I’ve just found that as a working guitarist, other than eye candy it matters that much.
But again I’m not a collector, just a musician who appreciates great guitars.
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