New Reverb Policy - COURTS?

**jzucker** · 08-03-2023, 01:43 PM

**Skip Ellis** · 08-03-2023, 01:48 PM

What 'certain issues'? Reverb is becoming a last resort for me - I've got a guitar listed but will probably be my last. Sweetwater has a similar program now - I listed my Brook on there last night. You can get the proceeds with a Sweetwater gift card with no fee or straight to your bank for 5%, I think. Sure better than Reverb.

**jeremiahzellers** · 08-03-2023, 02:31 PM

I’m glad SOMEONE is reading those terms. I never do (but probably should). Thanks for sharing.

**Stringswinger** · 08-03-2023, 04:28 PM

As a retired lawyer, let me offer you guys some free advice about this stuff.

A) Arbitration is never cheap as these days arbitrators charge $300 an hour and the costs are split by the parties to the dispute. In other words, even if you win, you still lose.

B) These days, my attorney friends still in that godforsaken business tell me that if your loss is less than $20,000 it is not worth the cost of litigation to recover any money unless you have a deep pocketed defendant AND a prevailing party attorney fee clause in a written contract.

C) There are instances where you are better off with the Court system (and can have your case decided by a jury) rather than an arbitrator, but I cannot see where a guitar deal is one of those instances.

D) Most online deals will be fine, some will not. If you use this platform to buy or sell gear, you may have a loss. If you cannot handle that risk, don't participate.

**jzucker** · 08-03-2023, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

As a retired lawyer, let me offer you guys some free advice about this stuff.

A) Arbitration is never cheap as these days arbitrators charge $300 an hour and the costs are split by the parties to the dispute. In other words, even if you win, you still lose.

B) These days, my attorney friends still in that godforsaken business tell me that if your loss is less than $20,000 it is not worth the cost of litigation to recover any money unless you have a deep pocketed defendant AND a prevailing party attorney fee clause in a written contract.

C) There are instances where you are better off with the Court system (and can have your case decided by a jury) rather than an arbitrator, but I cannot see where a guitar deal is one of those instances.

D) Most online deals will be fine, some will not. If you use this platform to buy or sell gear, you may have a loss. If you cannot handle that risk, don't participate.

I can't comment from a legal standpoint but from a common-sense standpoint, it seems to me that reverb is attempting to get out of the business of being the arbitrator in cases where there is a disagreement. For example, I sent a guitar back because my luthier told me the fingerboard had a twist in it and that it would need a significant planing and refretting to correct. Seller claimed nothing was wrong with it. It took reverb 2 weeks to arbitrate the case and some doofus from reverb - who probably knows about as much my dead grandmother about neck trueness - called my luthier and grilled him and accused him of being in collusion with me.

Reverb would like to get out of the business of doing this. They want to hire unskilled customer support staff that utilize, cheap, off-shore customer support call-centers. Getting rid of the requirement that they understand the ins and outs of guitars and amplifiers is the first step toward that...

**QAman** · 08-03-2023, 04:36 PM

Thanks for legal perspective Marco - much appreciated by all

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**st.bede** · 08-03-2023, 08:42 PM

I can not imagine Sweetwater being any different then reverb. People chose to sell gear that is bad. How Sweetwater will be able to stop that is something I do not know yet.

**Sam Sherry** · 08-03-2023, 09:33 PM

I am paraphrasing, but the gist is:
a. If you and Reverb have a problem notify Reverb and you have a month to work it out.
b. After that you or Reverb can start a proceeding before the American Arbitration Association, either under the Consumer Rules or the Commercial Rules. (It's been a while but I have filed a lot of AAA claims. It's not cheap.)
c. If the dispute fits onto the 'Small Claim Court' where you live, you can run the dispute in court as a small claim.

Anyone who thinks that this post on a jazz guitar site is legal advice or establishes any attorney-client relationship is so wrong that it's just not funny.

**omphalopsychos** · 08-03-2023, 11:31 PM

Having observed the recent update, I wanted to share my perspective on the matter. Although I'm not a lawyer, I am well-versed in financial technology within the payments industry, and this update doesn't cause any concern for me. When it comes to disputes over guitar purchases, the need for resorting to arbitration and litigation seems unnecessary.

In my experience, a practical and reliable solution lies in using a credit card issued by reputable companies like Visa or Amex, which offer excellent consumer protection. By making your purchase with such a credit card, you automatically gain coverage for instances where the received item doesn't match the description.

I find it surprising to see discussions on forums where people are arguing with sellers and seeking support from platforms like Reverb. In reality, these disputes can be avoided altogether, saving valuable time and frustration. Instead, if you encounter a legitimate grievance, a more straightforward approach would be to initiate a chargeback with your credit card company directly, explaining the situation, and having the funds returned to your account.

By taking advantage of the chargeback process provided by these credit card issuers, you can ensure a smoother and practically foolproof way of resolving any issues with guitar purchases.

**Rickco** · 08-04-2023, 01:06 PM

I thought using Pay Pal was the safest way to transact on the internet? The few times Ive had a dispute they stepped up and got my refund. If reverb doesnt have your back whats the point in paying their ridiculous fee? I was just about to list a guitar there....mabey not. Is using your visa or amex a better (safer) payment method than PP?

**jzucker** · 08-04-2023, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

In my experience, a practical and reliable solution lies in using a credit card issued by reputable companies like Visa or Amex, which offer excellent consumer protection. By making your purchase with such a credit card, you automatically gain coverage for instances where the received item doesn't match the description.

One of the user agreements you make with reverb is that they have the right to terminate your account if you issue a chargeback that goes against their arbitration decision. (This was before the latest update). I have actually been told by their support that they would close my account if I attempted to go directly to my credit card company with a dispute.

**omphalopsychos** · 08-04-2023, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

One of the user agreements you make with reverb is that they have the right to terminate your account if you issue a chargeback that goes against their arbitration decision. (This was before the latest update). I have actually been told by their support that they would close my account if I attempted to go directly to my credit card company with a dispute.

Show me this. It sounds contrary to consumer protection laws but I could see them saying this to a user who makes spammy chargeback threats. I've only charged back payments where I had a legitimate case, and both times I had to, Reverb instantly changed their tone, reversed their arbitration and corrected the situation.

**omphalopsychos** · 08-04-2023, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rickco

I thought using Pay Pal was the safest way to transact on the internet? The few times Ive had a dispute they stepped up and got my refund. If reverb doesnt have your back whats the point in paying their ridiculous fee? I was just about to list a guitar there....mabey not. Is using your visa or amex a better (safer) payment method than PP?

Paypal consumer protection is not as strong as consumer protection on your credit card.

**jzucker** · 08-04-2023, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Show me this. It sounds contrary to consumer protection laws but I could see them saying this to a user who makes spammy chargeback threats.

I can't show you a phone conversation.

**omphalopsychos** · 08-04-2023, 05:04 PM

You're making user agreements over the phone? Wow, surprised that (1) you consented to that and (2) that it's binding.

**jzucker** · 08-04-2023, 08:44 PM

i'm not interested in getting into a p*ssing contest. The phone rep threatened to cancel my account if I went outside of reverb for a resolution. That's my feedback and data-point. I have no obligation to prove anything. It's just my experience.

**omphalopsychos** · 08-04-2023, 10:51 PM

Not a pissing contest, just validating your statement that it's your unique experience.

**Nick71** · 08-05-2023, 08:42 AM

Reverb is dead to me..
time to move on..

**jazzshrink** · 08-05-2023, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Nick71

Reverb is dead to me..
time to move on..

Move on to where?

**deacon Mark** · 08-05-2023, 09:51 AM

I would never buy a guitar on reverb. The outfit is completely a mess and they want to control everything. Note that some of the most trusted dealers do not use Reverb and that says something to me. In fact, a deal who does not use Reverb has my respect all the more. The best thing is to find a guitar and go check it out personally. If you cannot do this, then you have to have absolute trust in who you are dealing with.

**jzucker** · 08-05-2023, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by jazzshrink

Move on to where?

Listings | Gear Exchange (sweetwater.com)

**jazzshrink** · 08-05-2023, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Listings | Gear Exchange (sweetwater.com)

Thank you!

**st.bede** · 08-05-2023, 11:23 AM

I can not see any reason why there would be any assumption that Sweetwater’s Gear Exchange would not suffer from the same problem of people selling faulty gear.

The best way I have found to buy used gear is from GC. When it is messed up, there is a fast(ish) return at a local store.

Theoretically when a piece of used gear is bought by GC, the sales person is supposed to fully check it out. Since that often does not happen, I have come to expect that I will have about a 30% return rate.

I also benefit from the fact that I have about 30 days to check out the gear. (That could be based in CA law, and not universal). There has been times when a problem was not immediately apparent. When that happens, once again an easy return.

I am not a fan of GC. At one point I was an hater of GC, but I realized that the local management of a particular store has a huge impact. Now I just wait until the local GC gets a new store manager.

The only benefit reverb had was to be able to negotiate a price. Since that has seemed to diminish, my buying with reverb has also diminished.