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Don't see a lot of talk on this topic.
I'm quite familiar with the tonal differences between laminate and carved archtops what I'm having a hard time grasping is what role the back and sides play in all this. For example, say there are 2 guitars, A and B, with spruce tops and identical everything except A has carved maple back and sides and B has laminate maple back and sides. What would be the expected tonal difference between these 2 guitars?
If you can't tell already I am interested in the Eastman AR503CE and AR580CE models but want to be sure of them over a fully carved model. This fellow has a YT channel in which he speaks on jazz guitar topics and it seems his main guitar is an AR580CE and it sounds (and looks) very good to me. I hear a little thunk in the lower register which I quite like.
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07-28-2023 03:34 PM
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Maybe it's my insufficiently sophisticated ears, but I can't say that I've ever been able to tell, purely from tone, whether the back and sides were solid or laminated. Every guitar sounds different, and there are so many factors involved that it's difficult to prove exactly which determines what sound, if even possible. Laminates do tend to be somewhat stiffer than solid wood, and are used in some high-end guitars for multiple reasons. In short, I wouldn't choose a guitar solely based on whether the back and sides are solid or laminated. I really wouldn't even care. But I'm not you, and YMMV.
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The back and the sides function differently. The sides being laminated is probably not a bad thing, their function is not to resonate. A resonant back however helps amplifying the bass range. Stiff back may produce boxier sounding guitars. Resonant back will produce more bass. This might be especially important in shallow body guitars (like the most Eastman's).
On the other hand, carved, resonant backs may make electric archtops more feedback prone. As always specific construction factors are as important as the general principles. I would play them side to side both amplified and acoustic while paying special attention to the bass amplification.
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The sides should be as stiff as possible since they add rigidity to the soundbox and only by their width (> depth of box) do they impart an effect on the tone of the guitar. Even the material they are made of is rather irrelevant.
My personal experiences with carved/solid wood backs on archtops made me stay away from them as I use these guitars as electric guitars on stage and since solid wood picks up soundwaves easier than plywood the feedback threshold is lower, making them more prone to feedback. This is NOT a steadfast rule, just my view of things after having owned and used these different models for many years.
In an acoustic classical or flattop guitar it's a different story since their backsides are not carved in a convex shape but flat (sometimes bent into a shallow arch), braced differently and therefor behaving in quite a different manner. Very noticeable is this when you sit down and hold the guitar away from your chest/belly so that the back can resonate freely : a considerable increase in bass volume is apparent - whether this is a good or a bad thing is open for discussion but I won't participate, it's futile. The playing posture that is needed for this effect is also very uncomfortable, compounding the issue.... whichever way you look at it, the TOP plate is the heart of the guitar, it's where the magic happens. An armrest on the lower bout that helps in NOT touching the soundboard is quite a useful thing, especially with a fine classical guitar.
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Two of the best chordal sounds I've heard live were from a Fender D'Aquisto and a Guild Artist Award.
What do they have for back and sides?
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The back and the side play small roles with the guitar sound. Certainly, the type of wood makes a difference such as maple vs. mahogany, not entirely sure as you cannot evaluate a specific guitar from prospectives. Some L5's have laminated maple backs I believe the ones from the late 60's. I would think a solid maple back and top would contribute toward a more uniform instrument that might yield a different tone, but inside my little head I am thinking, no.
The top and how it is carved is pretty much where things go with carved tops. The bracing for sure also has and huge effect. Rock maple is hard and much less giving I would think than even a laminated back. One other aspect is the gluing of the top to the sides. This may seem small but I remember Bill Hollenbeck talking at length about the importance of gluing the top to the sides so that the top was no under any stress. In other words, he wanted it to play perfectly level against the sides and the inner kerf lining that the top is glued down on. He said this allows the top to give the most flexibility for sound. In fact, he heard of makers that purposely had a bit of tension in the gluing to sides as a way to get the guitar to respond better.
The more you constrict the top to not vibrate the less power and sound you get. I don't build guitars so I cannot say for sure what builders think of this but I don't see it mentioned ever. It is like gluing the top bracing striving to get the bracing to just sit perfect and then glue. Laminating the sides would be no saving help it is easier just to bend the maple to what you need. Frankly the back just carved out even rough easier than figuring out laminating at least from the statepoint of a individual maker. Maybe in factory laminating is much easier.
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The difference in feedback threshold is where I have noticed the difference. For example, at times when I have played a fully solid/carved guitar with a big band, the back picks up vibrations from the bass or drums, depending on where I was positioned relative to them. This can cause swells of feedback. However, it’s manageable if you’re mindful of position yourself off to the side or slightly perpendicular to the bass (or bass amp) and/or drums.
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The original Fender-D'Aquisto models made in Japan in the 80's had laminated tops and backs, solid sides and three-piece maple necks.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The one exception was the all-solid-wood 17" ULTRA model, that's a very rare bird these days but from what I've seen over all those years
it's primarily of interest for collectors. My own D'Aquisto Elite model has a laminated spruce top, lam maple back and it's inherent
tone is rather bright. The original pickup (a Schaller design) translates this to a large degree when amplified but with some careful
adjustments of the volume and tone controls, the pickup height and string-choice this guitar is def. capable of delivering very nicely balanced,
warm and sustaining sounds. I've strung it Thomastik med. roundwounds and I'm sure it would sound very "plummy" with flats on it. It's also
got this great feature of a height-adjustable tailpiece so you can raise it and reduce the string-pressure on the bridge - this increases sustain a bit
and cuts down on acoustic volume and high-end sizzle. Quite effective but not seen very often on most archtops - one of D'Aquisto's "tricks" ...
My Trenier Jazz Special (also a lam-top, with the adjustable tailpiece) is the same size , weighs slightly less and has a louder acoustic tone but when amplified and played in a larger/louder group
the differences become negligible. The cool thing is that I found this D'Aquisto for a very attractive price, it's like new and these models have kept their
value (for players and collectors) over all these years.
I've never played an Artist Award but AFAIK they were/are all made from solid wood. It's a 17" carved top guitar so it will def.
sound different from a 16" lam top model - both can sound awesome, that's for sure ! The smaller model has a much higher feedback threshold,
better suited for a higher volume on stage.
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The top is the primary radiating element in the acoustical system, converting the pure kinetic energy of the strings into the box which creates the sound waves we hear.
Now if the primary source of energy comes from an amp, then having a laminate top is advantageous because the pickup is a part of an electronic and not acoustical system and a laminate top works for the pickup. Yes there are solid wood tops with pickups and they actually act as vibrational filters, taking transients from the plate and converting them to sound waves directly, hence leaving a signal with less 'harsh' transients to be 'heard' by the pickup. That's why solid top pickup driven guitars can have different, sometimes complementary personalities plugged and unplugged. It's also why people describe an L-4 as sounding "warmer" than an ES-175 which has the same dimensions but highlights the laminate/solid dichotomy. The solid topped L-4 responds more to the energy of the string, taking acoustical energy but leaving a different frequency envelope that is picked up by the pickups, high transients bled off (warmer).
Because the back and top are both vibrating surfaces, they both contribute to the acoustic sound of an instrument. In a hand built high quality tap tuned and hand graduated and arched instrument (built by a master luthier who knows his/her tap tuning), the top and back are tuned so they contribute to the overall evenness of the body of the guitar. The tops and backs are often tuned half step apart so together, as vibrating plates coupled by the air within the body, they can give a combined frequency that is even and strong throughout the spectrum. That's ideal lutherie as an art and the science that supports it. A mismatched or too closely coupled set of plates results in frequency re-enforcement and uncontrolled couplings which we perceive as wolf notes, resonant feedback peaks and dead notes)
Now solid top guitars are built to respond with a different amount of energy and it takes a different energy to excite them compared to a laminate top, same goes for solid and laminate backs. Ideally in the design of the guitar, materials matching and design (thickness of the plate) matching play a crucial role.
SO you don't design a solid back that works with a thick laminate top the same way you'd carve that same piece of wood coupled with a thin responsive solid wood. That's called impedance matching-designing energy response to work within the same range as the other plate.
So in short, it's not merely a matter of solid or laminate, but the inherent stiffness/mass (mass is linear and stiffness is logarhythmic) of the elements and how they are thicknessed. A laminate back can be matched with a solid top with great results if the mass and stiffness of that laminate material is compatible with the the top. A solid back that is mismatched, too thin or too thick, will be an inefficient use of that wood if it's not designed to work with the same top.
You can't just make one generalization about which is better, but I will say that laminate tops tend to be built heavier and are matched with thicker backs no matter the material, if they're to operate efficiently. By the same thinking, solid tops are in general potentially more responsive and will be built with lighter (carved) backs if they are to achieve their acoustic potential.
That's why laminate tops are well matched with less exactingly carved or pressed backs, solid top guitars may be built with more attention to overall plate matching.
That's my two cents. For many years now, I've been fortunate to have worked with luthiers and acoustical engineers, members of the Catgut acoustical society, and well respected acoustical luthiers within the GAL and luthiers across the world. It's fascinating information and certainly within the grasp of anyone who would care to find out more about plate tuning and guitar acoustics.
Hope this gives you something to consider anyway. In the end, it's your hands and fingers that determines the truth.
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To the OP: have a look at Steve Zook's YT videos. He made lots showcasing Loar LH650s he had for sale *acoustically* (aka unplugged), but also Loar LH350s. That's the cheaper version with a laminate back.
What's your own intended use, acoustically or plugged-in? If the latter, no need even to pay for a carved top, IMHO. In addition to the other differences, a laminate plate will react less to changes in humidity and temperature.
To the best of my knowledge the backs of classical guitars are always slightly bent through the bracing, and they're supposed to be stiff. I was surprised recently to learn that many of the best concert-grade guitars use a laminate back for that reason. The use of an "active back" is a bit controversial I think, or at least very delicate to get right; "doble tapa" backs are a bit more common AFAIK. Originally Posted by gitman
The carved back on my own Cabaret is thick enough that it can hardly be driven by the nylon strings on it, in a sufficient amount to contribute to the sound in any case. And from what I understand from discussions about comparable designs (e.g. Smallman) that is exactly how it should be.
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This is also true of the two laminated 'jazz boxes' that I play. So even a laminated back has some influence on tone. Both are quite thin laminated boxes all round, and are probably more 'lively' than some other laminated guitars. In the end though, both are electric guitars. I hear a slight difference thru the amp. Acoustically the diff between belly contact and none is quite obvious. Not worth the effort to trim down if you're plugging in though :-) Originally Posted by gitman
I have limited direct experience, but it might be worth noting that not all laminated archtops are the same. Different numbers and thicknesses of plies make different sounds.
I'm wary of broad generalizations about guitar construction. EG: according to one respected forum member his thick carved, late model Gibsons are more feedback resistant than his laminate B-120. Sort of flies in the face of the generally accepted wisdom about carved VS laminated. He's a pro player and has lots of gigging experience with his various guitars.
Unfortunately the only way to really know the difference between 2 guitars is to play them. Sum of their parts and so on.
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The back should by all accounts push the sound from the top back out, through the guitar, adding to the depth of tone and the character. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That being said, unlike violins where this REALLY matters, archtop backs are usually pressed against something and don't have a sound post.
For example if I hold my Guild JSA away from my body, is resonates more and sounds much deeper, than if I hold it close.
These things are however mostly only of interest to acoustic jazz guitars and for solo or mic'd recordings/performances.
What is being played in the video will likely have no benefit one way or another (although as many have said likely feed back more) to what this gentleman is doing.
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