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I’m going through a phase where even the smallest tuning discrepancies are are like nails on a blackboard to me. Went straight down the rabbit hole. This was triggered by playing a piece that contains a basic C# chord higher up on the neck (in tab, 9-9-10-11 starting on high E). I was merrily cruising through the piece and all was well until this chord came by and it sounded like putting my tongue on a 9V battery. Especially the major third sounded off.
Checked the guitar’s intonation at the 12th, all good. Still, the chord sounded bad.
Grabbed another guitar, same thing.
So I checked the intonation all over the neck and basically what I found is that if the octave is intonated properly, then so are the first 5 to 7 frets (assuming a properly set up guitar). Above that, the closer I get to the 12th fret, the worse the intonation seems to get, and then at the 12th it’s fine again. Above the 12th, it goes off again.
Then I listened to the same note played on adjacent strings around the octave, such as C# on the 9th fret of the high E and the same note on the 14th fret of the B string, etc. The results were mixed. Some sounded exactly the same, some surely didn’t.
The readings of my Peterson weren’t always confirmed by my ears. Sometimes things sounded off even when the tuner said that all is well.
String gauge and type of bridge (wood vs tune-o-matic) didn’t matter as much as I’d expected. Findings were pretty much the same with 10s, 11s, 12s and both bridge types.
My PRS guitars seem to be more accurate than the others. Surprisingly, an old PRS SE Soapbar One with non-adjustable wraparound bridge is by far the most in-tune guitar of them all, surpassing the likes of Gibson Custom and Collings.
Anyway, what I wanted to ask is this. When tuning, the initial attack when you pluck the string is higher in pitch than when you let the string ring. In other words, the decay is somewhat lower than the immediate note.
Do you tune and intonate based on the immediate note or on the decay?
Do you intonate purely on the 12th fret or are you taking some kind of average?
Would be interested to learn of others’ struggles with intonation. Thanks!
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07-18-2023 01:20 PM
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I wait to the vibration to stabilize. As you already mentioned, the attack of the note is always higher.
Being myself a violin player as well, I developed a high sensibility to exact pitch, so I had to get used to guitar issues regarding pitch accuracy. I repeatedly find myself trying to accommodate to the fact that actually a guitar will never be perfectly in tune, and that the sensation of perfection or error depends also on the key of the music being played.
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You could always go with true tempered frets.
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Hi !
This is something that explains it.
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Have you tried “sweetened” tunings?
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I always found that I was slightly bending the strings the higher up I went because to the angle of my hand. For years I blamed “crappy guitars” until I realized it was my crappy technique. Not your issue, but I know the pain…
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It's worse with nylon strung guitars. Sometimes it's the individual string! And of course, its age.
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Properly crowned frets can make a big difference for intonation. My 73 Les Paul recording had very worn frets - they were almost completely flat, there was no real 'crown', the intonation was all over the place. After a refret, the intonation was significantly improved.
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- If it's a question of which is correct, your Peterson Strobotuner or your ears, it's the former.
- Things in the room can throw off your sense of intonation. Ceiling fan is obvious. Then there is just the psychoacoustic thing. Why one tone setting is perfect one day and yuck the next. May apply to tuning perception? Dunno.
- As you watch the tuner, can you change intonation by shifting your grip or how hard you press?
- I had a tuning issue that drove me crazy on a particular guitar. Turned out to be nut depth. Treble strings.. lower on the neck.. obvious after it was fixed but the nut didn't feel particularly high.
Guitars won't ever be perfectly in tune but I wish players would try to get close so I get trying to hone in on it. Ever want to tell a performer a particular string is out? Drives me crazy.
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Thanks!
Originally Posted by Lionelsax
Originally Posted by Spook410
I think it does!
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Sure! I’ve always been able to find a way to make things sound right. Until I noticed how jarring that C# chord is. And now that I’ve heard it, I can never un-hear it.
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Tuning or setting intonation using the open strings is just wrong, IMHO. Unless, you mostly play open chords.
Setup the intonation between the 3rd fret and the 15th fret (or the area of the guitar you use most.).
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Well, what you say means you need a set up, it generally comes from the nut, some good files will fix the issue. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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There are notes that are closer to the intuitively beautiful natural harmonics and there are those that aren't. After I began playing fretless, there were notes of the scale that sound great, better than they ever had. The 3rd of the scale especially. Anyway I began hearing things that were "proper" notes that lined up with a good tuner, as being "off".
When I changed keys, or played chromatic harmony, my notes within the present chord being played sounded good but against the parent key, they could get pretty out.
This could very well be why something that "looks" good on a technically properly intonated guitar might not sound right to you. You're hearing strong notes that are enforced by natural harmonics. The guitar fingerboard can be quite far from that, especially to a sensitive ear.
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Quite! I’ve been able to deal with it since 1984 and it’s never been an issue, but right now it is one heck of an issue. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I tune to the note after the string stabilizes, not to the initial attack.
I usually tune to open strings, but, now and then, I'll tune to the 5th fret. I don't hear much difference.
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So do I and same here. Not much difference. But if I tune to the 9th fret on a guitar that’s accurately intonated at the 12th, then lower-position chords are way out of tune. It seems to me that the frets immediately surrounding the octave deviate the most. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Kreisberg’s playing is beautiful of course but I’m posting this because his guitar is so incredibly in tune. He’s playing widely stretched chords all over the neck and it all sounds perfect. It’s as if the intonation compromises mere mortals like me have to deal with don’t exist for him.
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But Kreisberg's guitar probably cost 1,000's of dollars plus extra work on it by expensive master craftsmen!
It doesn't have to be perfect. The music matters more.
That's what I think :-)I’m going through a phase
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There are fortunate people out there that don't notice but I'm afraid I'm not one of them.
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Saw a YouTube where someone intonated from 3rd to 15 using the saddles then took a Dremel to the nut to change the break point there. He intonated at both the saddle and the nut.
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Can you say "Buzz Feiten"?
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Not going to help the guitar will never be in tune as such anywhere just need to find a balance. The Buzz freiten system will not improve and guitar in any meaningful way. Originally Posted by TedBPhx
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James Taylor has a method for close to perfect tuning. Google it.
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James Taylor guitar tuning offsets Originally Posted by pdfiddler
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The Peterson HD Stroboclip on has the James Taylor Sweetened tunings as an option. Can’t stand it. Sounds out of tune. Originally Posted by pdfiddler
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