James Taylor guitar tuning offsets

[yebdox]

Ok, I'm often late to the party, but, having played for 40 years, I still struggle with getting guitars in tune. While I don't have a strobe, I have tried lots of methods - all "e"s, 4th and 5th fret methods, harmonics, tuning pedals, A octaves/adjusting internal strings to relative pitch, etc.

I had heard about James Taylor's offsets that he and his guitar techs came up with over the years (there's a youtube on it somewhere) and I wrote the offsets down a while ago, but didn't really mess with it until tonight. I think I like it!

-3 cents for E/1st
-6 cents for B
-4 cents for G
-8 cents for D
-10 cents for A
-12 cents for E/6th

I have 4 guitars with the Feiten system, which seemed somewhat helpful at the time, but I haven't tried this on any of those yet. But for a standardly intonated guitar, try this and see what you think.

[mr. beaumont]

I dunno...my guitars are all set up well enough that I can bang out a few notes on the electric piano, match em up, and tune.

If it's loud or I'm in a hurry I got a "snark."

Maybe I could do a $30 setup on JT'S Olson I think they go for what, 15k?

[yebdox]

Well, I'm lucky that he has the same problem I've had I've had some good setups, but trying this out seems good so far on a couple of my beasts. It's always something!

[feet]

given how many cents off my voice is, this can't possibly hurt. then again, way too much trouble for me. i usually just tune with a tuner (usually a turbo tuner, but sometimes that little tc electronics one) and then make any further adjustments by ear if the guitar isn't in tune with itself. which sometimes happens, because i'm not real punctual with the string changes and setups.

[Vladan]

I think single string note can vary more than advised offset, from attack to decay.

[yebdox]

It's definitely a moving target. That's why I spent the money to have 4 guitars "Feitenized" a few years ago, with the idea that the tuning would be tempered, and sound better, even if the math is off. It worked better for a few months with new strings, now I'm not sure I can tell anymore. As we all know, if it sounds perfect at the nut, it probably is off further up. So, I've tried various solutions, from fretting more lightly further down, to trying to fret more directly over the fret (hard to change an old habit) to the various tuning methods I mentioned. Some people never sound in tune to me, and the ones that do sometimes make it sound like it's easy to accomplish. I'm probably missing something, but it's not for lack of effort.

Maybe my ear isn't as good pitchwise as I always thought it was, or maybe swapping guitars and gauges back and forth as I play keeps me from working out a strategy for any one guitar. If I got rid of everything but one or two guitars, maybe I'd get used to those setups, but where's the fun in that?

Anyway, so far this seems to be working on a Sadowsky Jim Hall (13 flats) and a 335 (11 rounds), and I'm just using the "Cleartune" tuner on my iPhone. Will try it on my Korg Pitchblack and see if I can approximate the offsets there, as well.

[AlainJazz]

The Peterson strobe tuners come with some "sweetened" settings. I suspect that they offset similarly. I have to say though that after fooling around with it for a while, I decided to buy a snark and use that instead. I just tune up with the snark and do the rest by ear. It's faster than tuning to the cent on the Peterson tuner.

[D.G.]

I use a snark on the gig, it'll get close enough for jazz

Otherwise, I still prefer to tune to a tuning fork and then sweeten by ear. Trying to get "perfectly" in tune all over the neck is just not possible with a normal guitar. I tend to tune the 5th string to the fork and then tune the other strings to the 5th string using octaves/unisons and 5ths.

[yebdox]

Thanks for the info, guys, it's one of those simple nagging things that I'm never satisfied with. It isn't a perfect instrument, but I'm interested to hear how people come up with solutions that allow them to focus on their playing instead of their tuning.

I have a buddy whose ear is so good, he will just grab something like a maj7#11 with 5 or 6 strings, and then tweak it till it sounds good while he's holding the chord. I hate him for that, as it always seems to work, but he builds and repairs guitars besides being a great player, so that lessens my frustration a bit.

Any other insights? Anyone else try the Feiten system? Did it make your life easier?

[mr. beaumont]

Yebdox, do you have perfect pitch?

Does the guitar bother you more when playing alone or in a group?

This stuff fascinates me...

[yebdox]

Thanks, Jeff, no I don't but I wish I did. I have friends who do, and it seems useful. I have pretty good relative pitch for intervals, have a good ear for voicings and transcription.

On thinking about it, it is mostly when I'm playing by myself. I'm between bands right now, so working more on solo guitar, some duo stuff. It does seem more problematic when I want to hear all the voices in a chord and something's off.

I would just like to handle this aspect of playing that I've never reconciled and then put it to rest Will try it with some lighter gauge strings and nylon strings… if it passes those tests, then I will find a way to program it into a pedal (I think there are some that do that?)

[Vladan]

If I may say, tuning guitar for specific chord is the best way to have guitar out of tune over the neck. Somewhere I found the following which works for me, with some modificatios specific to my guitar, however with guitar in good woorking condition it goes like this:
1. Tune open Hi e to pitch.
2. Match low e harmo. on 5th fret to hi e.
3. Match low e 12th fretted and d 2nd
4. Match d 12th fretted and b 3rd
5. Match d 12th fr. and g 7th
6. Match g 2nd and a 12th fretted
Repeat as many times as nescessary.

Now, I first tune hi e to pitch at 7th fret, ie I tune that hi b than match 7th on low e, then proceede as above.

Re absolute pitch, I'm not even close, in fact, I dont have very much of pitch, absolute or relative, at all. At least that's what I think of my self. However, on ocassions I become extremely sensitive. Can not stand anything but robotic perfection. On other occassions I can whale all day long with some strings 1/4 step out, with no problems whatsoever.

[yebdox]

Thanks, Vladan,

I will give it a try. Haven't seen that particular sequence!

[PTChristopher2]

Hi Yeb,

If I may give an opinion:

>>> I had heard about James Taylor's offsets
-3 cents for E/1st
-6 cents for B
-4 cents for G
-8 cents for D
-10 cents for A
-12 cents for E/6th



Hard to comment on the use of the offsets without hearing what makes them so pleasing to the player. What specifically is better with these offsets?

But, what the heck,...

These look like a very predictable way to partially hide low position intonation errors without simply fixing the problem. (I assume that low position is emphasized for a folk-strum accompaniment style, what with all those suspended 4th fills and all.

Note that the offsets track the thickness of the solid core of each string. The fatter the solid steel part, the greater the offset. The B has more offset than the presumably wound G since it has a larger core (being all core).

More effective, in my opinion, would be to move the nut forward a small amount (roughly 0.5mm depending on string gauge, fret height, and player left hand technique). This is sometimes criticized as ham-fisted nut compensation, but would do what the above offsets do, without having flat open notes.

I can slog through why this is the case if you want, but it takes some work. Easy to write since I can cut and paste seasoned (oregano mostly) text, but maybe harder to discuss if we want to keep it very simple.

>>> Any other insights?

Har-har. "Insights" carries the implied jerk-expert-greatness gene. How about "opinion"?

I can walk through general intonation, nut compensation, and tuning offsets (generally a half-solution to a problem in my opinion), but it takes some doing.

>>>Anyone else try the Feiten system?

I have gone over it with a Feiten-trained feitenite. It is an understandable way to try to make some players somewhat more pleased with the sound of their guitar. In my opinion, it starts out OK with the VERY solid idea of moving the nut position forward, then goes off the rails with the gimmicky offsets as opposed to simply doing a very good job of bridge and nut compensation.

The problem with my so-called "very good job of bridge and nut compensation" is that there is not much to package and sell as a product as opposed to the sincere, but in my opinion, over-reaching Feiten system.

Chris

[PTChristopher2]

In my opinion, Vladan's system will work well to minimize the impact of poor low-position intonation. It is a fine way to make most guitars play rather well since it minimizes the impact of nut errors.

Chris

[yebdox]

Thanks, Chris,

I will ask my tech buddy about it. The couple of guitars that he has set up for me seemed at least as good as the Feiten jobs I had done, and he pooh poohed it with about the same graciousness as you have. At the time I had it done, it was certainly the rage, and I had them set up by a pretty well to do tech in Seattle who works with the big names, so I'm sure it was done properly. He was big proponent at the time.

My challenge is, I'm a player and not very knowledgeable about setups, etc, so I'm careful to have work done on my "girlfriends" (as my wife calls them) by someone less hamfisted and more knowledgeable than me.

Will test these offsets some more and see what it does for me. Right now, it seems as though everything sounds in tune or more tempered than before, but I DON'T play much in first position, which is interesting, since one would think that they would be optimized for Taylor's style of playing. Hmmmmm…. the mystery continues.

Thanks for offering to school me, but I won't bother you with that until I have more free time to put a guitar at risk in the pursuit of knowledge. Opinions and experience are more than welcome, thanks!

[Vladan]

...
More effective, in my opinion, would be to move the nut forward a small amount (roughly 0.5mm depending on string gauge, fret height, and player left hand technique). This is sometimes criticized as ham-fisted nut compensation, but would do what the above offsets do, without having flat open notes.
...

Glad you said that. Recently I posted on this forum a picture of my fast and punk cheap solution, which is a toothpick under low E, next to nut. In essence it's like moving the nut forward, but only for low E.
Must say, with new set of strings problem is much less prominent, but I guess as they decay, it will rise again. It's always like that, only this time I put 11s (on Tele, replaced old 10s), in hope fresh string effect will last a bit longer, before I pull toothpick trick again.

[PTChristopher2]

>>> a toothpick under low E, next to nut. In essence it's like moving the nut forward, but only for low E.

Nice solution.

Nut compensation is nothing new, and there are more than a few historical solutions just like yours that work for pretty basic reasons. Glad it works for you.

More common, but I suppose still a bit obscure, would be a shim in front of a plain G, which can be one of the more troublesome strings for intonation.

Chris

[Jehu]

Right now, it seems as though everything sounds in tune or more tempered than before, but I DON'T play much in first position, which is interesting, since one would think that they would be optimized for Taylor's style of playing. Hmmmmm…. the mystery continues.

I think Taylor plays much of his stuff with a capo, no? That might explain things...

[Vladan]

>>> a toothpick under low E, next to nut. In essence it's like moving the nut forward, but only for low E.

Nice solution.

Nut compensation is nothing new, and there are more than a few historical solutions just like yours that work for pretty basic reasons. Glad it works for you.

More common, but I suppose still a bit obscure, would be a shim in front of a plain G, which can be one of the more troublesome strings for intonation.

Chris

Hey Chriss, it may be we already talked this back then. Sorry if I forgot. Now reading your words, it's like a deja vu of a sort. Also could you please clarify "shim", English is not my native.

[PTChristopher2]

A shim is a spacer or something that fills a gap, often to offset the position of a mechanical component.

I used the term somewhat loosely to describe sticking something in front of the nut to move the effective nut position forward toward the first fret.

If doing this, please note that a small amount of change to the nut position (like 0,5mm) can have a significant effect.

Chris

[yebdox]

I think Taylor plays much of his stuff with a capo, no? That might explain things...

I think you may be right, which might mean that these offsets have more value than just to 1st position players. Been at work all day, will head home to try a few other guitars with this setup. And then, maybe take the worst offenders to my buddy for a better setup, per Chris' suggestion.

As I think about it, I NEVER have trouble with my GB-10, which still has the original brass/bone nut combo. Always rock solid in tune, stays that way for weeks… strings are probably 6 months old. Love that guitar, if it were just in a 17" body. (Not interested in the LGB models, something bothers my eye in that body contour.)

[Vladan]

A shim is a spacer or something that fills a gap, often to offset the position of a mechanical component.

I used the term somewhat loosely to describe sticking something in front of the nut to move the effective nut position forward toward the first fret.

If doing this, please note that a small amount of change to the nut position (like 0,5mm) can have a significant effect.

Chris

Thank You, very much. You seam to be a real expert on these technical things and not shy to share. Respect.

Also thanks to yebdox for bringing up this topic.

[Alder Statesman]

The Peterson strobe tuners come with some "sweetened" settings. I suspect that they offset similarly. I have to say though that after fooling around with it for a while, I decided to buy a snark and use that instead. I just tune up with the snark and do the rest by ear. It's faster than tuning to the cent on the Peterson tuner.

At least with Peterson's StroboClip, the only sweetened guitar tuning is for rock power chords. Great for Smoke on the Water, but jazz or any other style sounds a bit off to unpleasing.

The other Peterson tuners, which I have no experience with, offer additional sweetened tunings for guitar which may sound better.

[Jabberwocky]

Has anybody had a go at this: http://www.hosco.co.jp/HOSCO_ENGLISH...ctsE/sosE.html ?

http://www.philadelphialuthiertools....-for-electric/