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Interesting. Wasn't there another shelf nut system that got popular after the Feiten system came out? As I recall, their ads consisted largely of taking potshots at Feiten, which was a turn off. And, it was a rather large looking thing, like buck teeth for your headstock.
The Offsets on the japanese version don't seem to correlate to the Taylor offsets, but I'm no string physicist.
Just retuned the Sadowsky last night after getting home, sounds really good in all positions with chord solos…. Really good. Too tired to grab another guitar, but will pick something else to try it on tonight.
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01-07-2014 11:26 AM
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This seems to be the same as Vladans approach and it seems to work fairly well from
my experience:
http://www.guitarrepairsuk.com/tuning_and_tunings.htm
The competing nut system to the feiten one is:
http://www.earvana.com
This is a thread that I find really interesting because I too have struggled for a long time to get a tuning that is sweet for jazz.
Chris, one question I have for you as an expert is: can a poorly cut nut cause intonation issues on the upper frets (say 8-12)? The reason I ask is because everything I've read indicates that nut issues only cause intonation problems on the lower frets. I suspect that this is not always the case. I have a beautiful sadowsky that I bought used and that has been an intonation nuisance. I've long suspected the nut because I am quite good at doing my own setups (truss rod, bridge intonation etc.). No matter what I tried (and that is a lot) both the 3rd and 4th strings are off at the twelfth fret by between 5 and 8 cents. I have a true tone bridge on it.
Last week for fun, I put a TOM on it and compensated the 3rd and 4th strings properly. Everything was great except that now the intonation on the lower frets (1 to 5) is totally off. It is also strange that the harmonic and open strings differ by about 5 cents.
Would you suspect the nut as the culprit? I've been thinking about bringing it to my luthier on the weekend and ask him to replace the nut. The first time I was there, he couldn't figure out why the intonation was off.
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>>> Chris, one question I have for you as an expert is:
Oh no. The last thing any forum needs is a bloviating "expert" to tell you what the jazz greats (including said bloviating expert) will tell you to think.
But I am happy to give my opinion, which is definitely open to challenge and question.
>>> can a poorly cut nut cause intonation issues on the upper frets (say 8-12)?
Yes.
Bridge position and compensation has ever greater effect as you play farther up the neck, but it has some small effect even at the first fret.
Nut position (including height) has lesser effect as you play farther up the neck, but it has some remaining effect even in your 8-12th range.
>>> everything I've read indicates that nut issues only cause intonation problems on the lower frets.
Nut compensation is hard to summarize, so many try to simplify to a degree that may be excessive.
If you can stand it, I can plow through the details of compensation in a later post. It is long and arguably complicated, but not beyond any of us in my opinion.
>>> I have a beautiful sadowsky [... with...] a true tone bridge on it.
The Sadowsky bridges are VERY well conceived. Do 500 setups and you begin to notice a pattern or two. In my opinion, the Sadowsky bridges are the best fixed-compensation design out there.
>>> Everything was great except that now [with a T-O-M bridge "perfectly" compensated] the intonation on the lower frets (1 to 5) is totally off.
This certainly points to the nut, which is definitely able to be improved if your guy understands nut position and compensation well.
>>> It is also strange that the harmonic and open strings differ by about 5 cents.
Not as strange as one may think. There is a principle called "inharmonicity". To make a VERY ROUGH summary:
- Strings are not perfectly flexible, so the stiffness makes the effective length of the string a bit shorter on the root (full length) vibration.
- Harmonics involve further vibration arcs and further effects from string stiffness,
- Which can make them out of tune with the root vibration.
On guitars this is often not a noticeable problem. On pianos it is a big issue. This is primarily why pianos are "stretch tuned". This includes the benefit that upper notes are in tune with the harmonics of lower notes.
There is far more to this, but maybe this is enough for a basic forum opinion.
Beyond inharmonicity, the harmonics on a guitar string can also be off due to imperfections in the string - and there are always imperfections.
It can also be due to dirt (or sweat, grease, food, nose boogers) on the strings.
In our modern age of accurate tuners for the masses, forget using the 12th fret harmonic for setting "intonation".
Just use fretted notes, which is how we make music noises anyway.
In my opinion.
>>> I've been thinking about bringing it to my luthier on the weekend and ask him to replace the nut. The first time I was there, he couldn't figure out why the intonation was off.
First off, the view of your luthier with your guitar in hand is far more valuable than my web post.
On the other hand, I would not start throwing new nuts at your guitar unless you and your luthier have a specific plan for how the new nut will address the problems you are having.
I hope this all works out for you.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher2; 01-07-2014 at 07:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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>>> The Offsets on the japanese version don't seem to correlate to the Taylor offsets, but I'm no string physicist.
In my opinion the apparent offsets in the AG1 (for acoustic) match your Taylor offsets to a remarkable extent, and represent a far more fundamental solution.
I mean the offsets as a solution. The actual product may have more troubles that it is worth in terms of positioning, adhesion, and especially on string height at the nut.
Chris
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Thanks, Chris,
It's always reassuring, if a bit humbling, to know that there's something one doesn't understand, but that SOMEONE does.
You know, I have the truetone bridge for my Sadowsky, but I had to order it as it didn't come with it and have yet to put it on. I will try it out the next time I change strings. I thought Sadowsky advertised it for use with other archtops as well, but don't quote me on that. I wonder if it would make a difference with string length (24.75 vs 25.5)?
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I am still coming to terms with the thread starting with James Taylor.
I suggest making sure you use the right Sadowsky bridge (wound vs. plain G).
>>> I wonder if it would make a difference with string length (24.75 vs 25.5)?
In principle it makes a difference. A given set of strings at the exact same action height, nut setup, and neck relief would need slightly (really, really, slightly) less compensation at 25.5 compared to 24.75. So the difference from one string bridge offset position to the next would be slightly different. The practical difference would be extremely small.
But the Sadowsky bridges look to me to be a superb compromise.
Imagine all the Guild guitars and players using that awful over-compensated wooden bridge - they still sound great.
Imagine all the Benedetto players using a bridge that forms more of less a straight (albeit slanted) line. They sound great too.
But indeed the Sadowsky are superior in compensation accuracy to both.
In my opinion.
Chris
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Hey, he's no Kreisberg, but I really dig his songwriting and those funky fingerstyle parts he writesI am still coming to terms with the thread starting with James Taylor.
I could understand how someone in his position would really REALLY want every voicing in tune...
Gotcha… they shipped both, but thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that.I suggest making sure you use the right Sadowsky bridge (wound vs. plain G).
Another mystery! What, is the wood more forgiving? More organic mojo? Why does that just work? Is there anything more mysterious than getting all of this together to actually produce some great sounds? Wood, steel, physics, magnetism, sound waves, flesh, gray matter...Imagine all the Guild guitars and players using that awful over-compensated wooden bridge - they still sound great.
Imagine all the Benedetto players using a bridge that forms more of less a straight (albeit slanted) line. They sound great too.
But indeed the Sadowsky are superior in compensation accuracy to both.
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>>> Another mystery! What, is the wood more forgiving? More organic mojo?
The Sadowsky bridges simply place the offsets in a position that is really very well centered in the offset range that the vast majority of string sets and guitar set-ups requires for best-fit bridge compensation.
So compared to the old Westerley Guild bridges and the Benedetto bridges, they can represent improved general intonation for most players.
In my opinion.
Chris
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Thanks, Chris, for the good discussion and helpful information. Just the way the forum is supposed to unfold :-).
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Chris, thank you so much. This is very helpful! Btw, no boogers on my strings, just brand new TI 13 Bebops. I've ruled out bad strings by trying several sets and brands. I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks again.
Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
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Alain, my strings don't start sounding good until the boogers get about 4 weeks old! I'm scared to change brands, because of how good they sound…. Be patient and let them age properly
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Incidentally, the first time I went to my luthier with the "issue" he filed (with my consent) the position of the G groove on the true tone bridge as far back as possible (basically hitting the groove on the other side) and it was still off by 6 cents while the ends (high and low E) were right on. I suspected that can't be right but I was desperate for a solution. He even said himself "this defies the laws of physics" :-). I've since bought another brand new true tone bridge which I will ask him to use. I've now pretty much tried everything besides the nut. When I got the guitar, I noticed that the grooves of the G and D strings (the ones that are off) had some kind of white powder in them. Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
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>>> he filed (with my consent) the position of the G groove on the true tone bridge as far back as possible (basically hitting the groove on the other side)
This might sound like a classic axiom of "lateral thinking", which says, "You can not dig a hole in a different place by digging a deeper hole where you are." I mean no criticism of your thinking or that of your luthier. But yeah, if the nut is wrong, you absolutely can not fix it at the bridge.
In my opinion, your luthier is the one with the actual guitar in front of him, so he can best suggest what to try next.
As part of a fun discussion, I might think through what I might try,...
A nut may well help, but it is possible to test this by removing the nut from the current situation.
A lightly applied Shubb capo behind the first fret can help. Set the capo well below "stun", just tight enough to reliably fret each string at the first fret. It will make you feel like James Taylor, who I begin to suspect is involved somehow.
Then tune the now-fretted strings to first-fret pitch.
Now play notes between the 7th and 17th frets to check for a best-fit bridge compensation.
I would not set the bridge for any singe fretted note, but rather check all (or at least quite a few) notes from the 7th to the 17th fret and set the bridge position for the best fit amongst these notes. Constantly re-tune the capo-ed note after moving the bridge.
Do not bother with any harmonics. In my view they are immaterial to the situation, and while useful as a very traditional way of setting bridge compensation by ear, they add nothing that can not be better done with a tuner.
Notes above the 17th fret are generally too subject to inharmonicity errors to be useful in setting bridge compensation.
Notes below the 7th fret are so strongly affected by nut height and position, that I would not suggest to use them as part of finding the best-fit bridge position.
So now we have set the bridge compensation with the nut not involved. Do you still require extraordinary positioning of a given string bridge position (like the deeply filed G-slot)?
If so, then chasing the nut (so to speak) is unlikely to help. You may still have nut trouble, but it is not the only problem, and not likely to "solve" everything.
Anyway, if all is reasonably good at this point,...
Remove the capo, and see what you have with the nut now involved.
Tune the open strings to pitch. Try notes from the first to the 17th fret, and look at any trends.
It is likely that you may have sharp notes everywhere, and notably more so in lower positions. This points not only to the nut, but also will guide which strings are in trouble and to what extent.
Or you may find something different, which would be very interesting to hear here.
Note that a plain G is a really tough string for intonation errors at both the bridge and the nut. What string set are you using?
All in my opinion, and very much open to discussion and alternate views from expert and beginner alike.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher2; 01-08-2014 at 08:16 AM.
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This is great Chris. Thanks so much. I will try it out tonight when I get home and report back. I use TI 13s with a wound G. The true tone is also for the wound G. I double and triple checked that.
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Ok, so now I have the results. The bad news is it can't be the nut. With the guitar capo'ed like you suggested, I get the following results:
When the 1st, 2nd, and 6th string are more or less optimized, the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings are way off. The problem seems to start around the 8th or 9th fret (on average being 2 or 3 cents sharp) but is severely aggravated starting with the 12th fret. Here are some examples (numbers are all in cents)
5th string (A):
12th: +3
13th: + 6
17th: +9
4th string (D):
12th: +6
13th: +7
14th:+8
3rd string (G):
12th: +8
13th: + 8
17th: +11
Notice the significant jump at the 12th fret on the A string.
The bridge is a standard Sadowsky true tone.
Hmmm, any idea what could be going on here?
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Since they're all in +, firsst thing would be to move saddles, or whole bridge further away. Since higher strings are more in + it would mean the bridge line should be less angled, for what it's worth from armchair philosopher (read troll) like I am.
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Thanks Vladan but that wouldn't explain why the 1st, 2nd, and 6th strings are pretty well intonated. The angle of the bridge right now is pretty straight. I didn't specifically place it that way but that was the result of the intonation tweaking. I should also mention that the neck pickup is not particularly close to the strings so I think we can rule out magnetic pull. I'm really stumped on this.
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Hi Alain.
Thanks for the update.
In my opinion there may still be nut issues, but as you note they are certainly not the whole problem.
Poorly spaced frets are a fairly rare thing among well-made guitars, which your certainly is. Also, checking fret spacing is not all that easy to do - so possibly best left to your luthier if indeed it is even worth doing.
Your string set has no wacky combinations of gauges, so there is not a likely problem there.
I assume you are using fairly new strings for this test.
Thanks for noting the PU position. Can you just quantify it as the distance from each E string to the top of the cover with the strings fretted at the highest fret? This is extremely unlikely to be a significant part of the problem, but it is a fast thing to check.
Is it too much to ask for a more complete picture? It would be a fair amount of work, but may avoid bad guesses here.
With the nut still out of the picture for now, can you give the tuning (+/- in cents) info for all six strings from the 7th to the 17th, maybe just at every other fret?
Then can you try to move the bridge to get only the A string as good as possible then give the 7th to 17th numbers?
And if you feel particularly energetic, repeat these numbers with the nut back in use.
In my opinion, there is always a solution. It is just a matter of looking enough.
It is possible that we could run out of progress possibilities here on a blind forum, but I am willing to hang in there as long as you think it may help.
Chris
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Alain,
More unfair requests for info:
Can you advise on the action height of the strings at the 12th fret? Note whether or not you had the capo on the first fret.
Can you advise in the amount of neck relief on the E strings. Using the first fret capo press down on each string at the 14th fret and not the height above the 6th fret. No need to measure, just note it as similar to the diameter of which string.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
thanks so much for your help. Ok, I'll make those measurements tomorrow. For now, I can tell you that the neck has really minimal relief (just a slight touch). I like the necks on my guitars as straight as possible. Action is fairly low but I'll measure it exactly tomorrow. The capo is not exactly on the 1st fret but rather between 1st and the nut but as close to the fret itself as I could get. Ie it is fretting the first fret. Is that a problem?
Edit: and yes the strings are brand new.Last edited by AlainJazz; 01-08-2014 at 06:52 PM.
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The capo is fine as you are placing it.
Just to say why I ask for the measurements:
While I see what you mean by the few numbers you give, I can not see how it fits in the whole intonation picture.
For example, a note being off by 10 cents is a pretty significant thing. While a single note being off by 2 or 3 cents vs. other failed notes in a whole curve of rising sharpness is not all that unusual.
Of course I may still not see anything clearly after your measurements (through lack of ability or other reasons ), it is also possible that it may lead to something useful.
Chris
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Thanks Chris! Even if it doesn't lead to anything, I'm certainly learning something along the way.
I just want to apologize to yedbox for kind of hijacking this thread. I hope you agree that it's kind of on topic?
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Chris, here are the measurements:
String height above the pickup with the last fret fretted: 0,1094"
Action without Capo on 6th at 12th fret: 0.060
Action without Capo on 1st at 12th fret: 0.055
Relief at 6th: Roughly the diameter of the first string (in this case a 0.013)
Now the tuning measurements:
All measurements are ascending from the 7th to the 17th fret
With Capo on and with 1st, 2nd, and 6th strings roughly intonated (like in the last post)
6E: -2.5, -2.3, +2.5, +0.5, -0.5, +0.0, -0.5, -0.5, -1.5, -4.0, -5.0
5A:+1.2, +1.5, +2.0, +1.7, +1.2, +2.8, +5.5, +7.3, +5.4, +8.0, +9.0
4D:+2.1, +1.8, +5.0, +4.3, +5.3, +6.0, +6.0, +7.0, +6.0, +8.0, +9.0
3G:+4.0, +4.5, +4.8, +5.5, +4.8, +8.0, 6.5, +8.4, 7.0, +8.0, +9.0
2B:-1.0, +0.0, +1.0, -0.5, +0.0, -1.0, +0.5, +1.0, +1.5, +1.0, +0.5
1E:+1.0, +0.8, +0.0, +0.0, +0.0, +0.0, +0.5, +0.5, +0.0, +1.0, +1.0
With Capo on, and bridge intonated to optimize the 5th String (A):
6E: -4.5, -4.3, +0.5, -1.0, -3.2, -3.0, -4.0, -4.5, -5.0, -7.0, -7.0
5A: +0.0, +0.5, +0.5, +0.5, +0.5, +0.0, +3.0, +3.0, +4.0, +7.0, +6.0
4D: +1.5, +2.3, +4.5, +4.0, +3.8, +4.0, +6.0, +7.0, +5.0, +5.0, +8.0
3G: +2.0, +2.4, +3.0, +3.0, +3.0, +4.0, +4.0, +6.0, +6.0, +6.0, +7.0
2B: -0.5, -0.5, +2.0, +1.5, +0.5, -0.5, +0.0, -0.5, -1.0, -1.0, +0.5
1E: -1.0, +0.5, +0.5, +2.0, -0.5, +1.0, +0.0, +0.0, -1.0, +0.0, -0.5
With Capo off, and bridge intonated to optimize the 5th string (A)
6E:-8.0, -6.0, -3.5, -4.0, -6.0, -5.0, -5.0, -5.0, -7.0, -8.0, -9.0
5A:-2.2, -2.0, +0.0, +0.5,-0.5, +0.0, +2.0,+4.0, +5.0, +5.0, +7.0
4D:+2.0, +3.0, +3.0, +4.0, +5.0, +7.0, +6.0, +5.0, +6.0, +7.0, +9.0
3G:+6.0, +5.8, +5.0, +8.0, +8.5,+9.5,+9.0, +11.0, +10.0, +11.0, +12.0
2B:-3.2, -2.0, -2.0, -1.0, -1.0, +0.0, +1.0, +2.0, +2.5, +1.0, +2.0
1E:-0.5,+2.0, +2.0, +2.0, +2.0, +3.0, +3.0, +4.0, +5.0, +6.0, +7.0
I hope I got everything (it took a loooong time :-))
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Wow, I just typed a response and it all got lost somehow.
I'll start over.
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This will be a much shorter response vs. my lost one - so good news on the brevity front.
Thanks for all the info.
The action is low, which is fine - and the relief looks proportional to the low action.
The PU height is fine.
>>>> (it took a loooong time :-))
Yeah, I know.
Just noting the pitch to the nearest cent is more than accurate enough.
Unfortunately there is no big obvious problem here in my opinion.
But the capo-on vs. capo-off suggests that a good check of the nut is worth doing.
More questions:
Can you measure from the front edge of the nut to the center of the 1st, 5th, and 12th frets along the G string?
This is to check for the very unlikely possibility of the end of the FB being in the wrong place.
Then can you check the height of each nut slot by pressing down between the 2nd and 3rd frets and noting the clearance above the first fret?
Is it about the thickness of a sheet of paper? More? Less?
The check the front edge of the G string slot. Is it cut so that the string keeps contact with the fret all the way to the front edge of the nut?
Have you temporarily mounted a t-o-m bridge and adjusted for each string? Do you have a pic of the resulting compensation pattern?
12 cents sounds like a lot of trouble, but chipping away at it could well get you to the point where only a bit of brodge adjustment is needed.
All in my opinion.
Chris
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