Need to add volume

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

But, a second LJ would be likely to produce a noticeable increase in volume.

Noticeable - yes. Significant - probably not. Doubling output power will increase volume by a maximum of 3 dB, which is barely noticeable. Using 2 sources will increase dispersion for a more accessible sound field. But I don't recall ever having an amp that was only 3 dB too quiet for gigging. You're at the very top of the usable range of power, so there's no clean headroom at all. Your tone will be compressed, and distortion rises rapidly and audibly above rated power.

If you push the amp above its maximum sustainable output hard or often, you also increase the chances of overheating the amp, blowing a speaker etc. At best, overheating wil trigger thermal shutdown and you'll have no amp at all until it cools enough to restart. At worst, you'll suffer more serious, expensive, lasting damage. A lot of blown speakers are pushed over the edge by underpowered amplifiers because of the high distortion above rated power. Solid state amps are especially prone to doing this because when they clip, they literally amputate the tops of the waveforms. This produces sharp transients of random, high energy distortion products that are odd order and/or out of the harmonic spectrum of the signal. These high energy"spectral splashes" wreak havoc on speakers.

If your amp is clearly not loud enough for your needs, an extra 3 dB isn't going to make everything nicey nice. You're still going to be pushing your amp too hard and not getting full tonal quality. You have no reserve power for peaks, random powerline fuctuations, etc. Your engine's at its redline - it simply won't go any faster. I've been a gigging musician for 6+ decades. I've bought amps that seemed fine in the store but couldn't make it on the bandstand. I exchanged a Kustom 50 for a Kustom 150 after 1 gig because it was lost in a 5 piece combo. I bought the first Peavey Transtube Bandit model that came out because it sounded great in the store and returned it after one gig - it couldn't cut through a 7 piece wedding band. The same thing happened with a Phil Jones Briefcase.

Buying a second LJ to get another 3 dB and a bit better sound dispersion isn't an ideal way to approach your problem because it won't be much louder and it won't sound great pushed to its limits. If you need a more powerful amplifier, you'll have to buy one. A good class D head like a BAM200, a Gnome, an Elf, or a DV Mark 250 will easily push a 10" Toob to serious sound levels for half the cost of a Blu 6, especially if you get the Toob loaded with a 4 Ohm speaker. Quilter makes some wonderful heads and combos with lots of power. You can pick up a good used Mach combo for well under $1k or a fine 100 or 200 series head for well under $500. And I love my Blu 6 (as does every other owner on this forum). It's expensive and it's worth it.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the truth is simple: you can't get a quart out of a pint bottle.

[rpjazzguitar]

Noticeable - yes. Significant - probably not. Doubling output power will increase volume by a maximum of 3 dB, which is barely noticeable. Using 2 sources will increase dispersion for a more accessible sound field. But I don't recall ever having an amp that was only 3 dB too quiet for gigging. You're at the very top of the usable range of power, so there's no clean headroom at all. Your tone will be compressed, and distortion rises rapidly and audibly above rated power.

If you push the amp above its maximum sustainable output hard or often, you also increase the chances of overheating the amp, blowing a speaker etc. At best, overheating wil trigger thermal shutdown and you'll have no amp at all until it cools enough to restart. At worst, you'll suffer more serious, expensive, lasting damage. A lot of blown speakers are pushed over the edge by underpowered amplifiers because of the high distortion above rated power. Solid state amps are especially prone to doing this because when they clip, they literally amputate the tops of the waveforms. This produces sharp transients of random, high energy distortion products that are odd order and/or out of the harmonic spectrum of the signal. These high energy"spectral splashes" wreak havoc on speakers.

If your amp is clearly not loud enough for your needs, an extra 3 dB isn't going to make everything nicey nice. You're still going to be pushing your amp too hard and not getting full tonal quality. You have no reserve power for peaks, random powerline fuctuations, etc. Your engine's at its redline - it simply won't go any faster. I've been a gigging musician for 6+ decades. I've bought amps that seemed fine in the store but couldn't make it on the bandstand. I exchanged a Kustom 50 for a Kustom 150 after 1 gig because it was lost in a 5 piece combo. I bought the first Peavey Transtube Bandit model that came out because it sounded great in the store and returned it after one gig - it couldn't cut through a 7 piece wedding band. The same thing happened with a Phil Jones Briefcase.

Buying a second LJ to get another 3 dB and a bit better sound dispersion isn't an ideal way to approach your problem because it won't be much louder and it won't sound great pushed to its limits. If you need a more powerful amplifier, you'll have to buy one. A good class D head like a BAM200, a Gnome, an Elf, or a DV Mark 250 will easily push a 10" Toob to serious sound levels for half the cost of a Blu 6, especially if you get the Toob loaded with a 4 Ohm speaker. Quilter makes some wonderful heads and combos with lots of power. You can pick up a good used Mach combo for well under $1k or a fine 100 or 200 series head for well under $500. And I love my Blu 6 (as does every other owner on this forum). It's expensive and it's worth it.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the truth is simple: you can't get a quart out of a pint bottle.

I didn't find that harsh at all. Clearly, you're a knowledgeable guy who is kind enough to share the knowledge. That's a gift.

I'm inclined to go the powered speaker route because I like the sound of the LJ, including through a PA (Stagepas 300) with an 8" speaker.

I'm going to start, I think, with the 350 watt Alto from GC with the return privilege. Light, cheap and returnable.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm going to start, I think, with the 350 watt Alto from GC with the return privilege. Light, cheap and returnable.

Good choice! As we old auto racers used to say, there’s no substitute for cubic inches

It’s like the man said after seeing ballet dancers for the first time: “If they wanted tall girls, they should have hired tall girls”.

[rpjazzguitar]

Last thoughts.

Because Class D is so light, a passive cabinet isn't necessarily much lighter than a powered speaker.

The powered speaker requires an extra wire, but, otoh, it also provides a backup in case the first amp fails. In a pinch, the powered speaker can be the amp -- run off the pedalboard. I've tried that before, learning more than I wanted about consumer vs pro line-level. The ME80 will not drive an Alto properly without adding a bunch of gain in the preamp section of the ME80. But it would be better than nothing.

It allows for greater dispersion than a rig with only one speaker. It will support vocals, which could be useful the next time I play with people who haven't heard me sing before.

It's around a tenth the price of the Bud. I've heard great reviews of the Bud -- Rudy's Music was demo'ing their vintage D'Angelicos with one a few years ago. But, since I like the sound of the LJ, I don't have much incentive to go beyond simply making the LJ louder, which the powered speaker should do if it's reasonably faithful to its own input. Of course, if the Bud is as loud as I'll ever need, then I might be okay with one box to move, half the weight and two fewer wires.

Having two boxes is helpful. One of the things I've done is used the LJ as a monitor. Then run another line (from the other output of the ME80) to a second amp and pointed it at the audience. Or, in big band, at the trombones. (Gratuitous trombone joke deleted). I then let some trusted person in the audience (or bone section) adjust the volume on the second amp. Balances the sound without bothering me.

I've never quite understood the situation where you're covering a big room with your one amp. You can end up blasting yourself with your own amp to the detriment of hearing the band clearly. There should be a PA, but, in the low-rent settings I play in, there usually isn't.

And, I've noticed, maybe because of a hearing problem, that with too much volume, I start losing detail. It can all sound like a dull roar even through 15 db reduction earplugs.

And, a thank you to all who responded. Great ideas all around and much appreciated.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Then run another line (from the other output of the ME80) to a second amp and pointed it at the audience. Or, in big band, at the trombones. (Gratuitous trombone joke deleted).

Let me help...

A trombone player stopped at a diner after his gig for a late meal. He was so tired that he forgot to put his trombone in the trunk and left it on the back seat of his car. Halfway through his hamburger, he realized what he'd done and ran back to the car to conceal his instrument. When he reached the car, his biggest fear was realized - someone had broken in....and left another trombone on top of his.

FWIW, my main amps are a Blu 6 and a Superblock US driving either a 6.5" or a 10" Toob. I also have a 250 watt DV Mark head that sounds great through the Toobs and a pair of heavier cabs (an RE 10 and a RevSound 8) - but I rarely take the 250 or either of the traditional cabs out of the house. A Bud / Blu is loud enough for 95+% of gigs, but it's clean to the max and the Superblock does great smooth crunch.

[rpjazzguitar]

Q: What is the difference between a trombone player and a dead armadillo, flattened on a desert road?

A: The armadillo might have been on his way to a gig.

[burchyk]

My Mambo is lighter than a BF Fender Champ and has more volume / headroom than I'll ever need. Sounds wonderful too.

[Jonathan0996]

Thanks for this explanation. A bit over my head, but if I may I ask a simplistic question ...

If I plug an 8 ohm speaker into the LJ and leave the internal speaker on ... then the amplifier sees a 4 ohm load and pushes more watts.
Unless, the internal speaker isn't 8 ohms to being with, I guess. And they're connected in parallel, not series.

But, I get stuck with the notion that dividing the amp's power among two speakers doesn't somehow reduce (halve?) the power to each. That both speakers could be at the original SPL of the internal speaker sounds like magic. What am I missing?

And, then, if reducing the speaker impedence is effective (louder and still sounds good) why didn't the manufacturer do that with the internal speaker?

One other thing. What happens if I run two identical LJ's simultaneously? My pedalboard, an ME80, has left and right outputs (they imply stereo, but they're identical). Do I get more volume from two amps than amp + external speaker cab?

I don't have any experience with your amp, but my Evans is 200 watts into 8 ohms. It's 300 watts into 4 ohms. It has an 8 ohm internal speaker. If I plug an 8 ohm external cabinet, it's significantly louder with the two speakers. I do that on especially loud gigs.

So do it. That's the easy answer to your problem. I can't tell you why they don't just use 4 ohm speakers, but they don't.

[pauln]

Line array was mentioned... be sure you do not even consider that!

The only service a line array has provided as an instrument speaker that I've heard in which it sounded OK to pretty good was for single piano sound only, and that after considerable adjustment of the EQ.

For everything else, including vocals, the result is poor to horrible for indoors, poor for outdoors.

The line array approximates an indefinite length of multiple speakers, results in approaching a constant level regardless of distance... that is the "nice" feature which is a little like using a reflective floor and ceiling effect without the floor and ceiling - so it needs big outdoor kind of space to sound right. This can work if all instruments are going through a line array PA. Otherwise the level of everyone drops naturally with distance except the one in the line array.

Indoors, the actual reflections from the floor and ceiling are added to the line array's geometric "synthesis" of an absent floor and ceiling... the result indoors is a double way too hot loud image level that no one can move far enough away from..

Most everyone using a line array refuses to believe that the stage level they comfortably hear is maintained all the way to the back row in the house seating. That is what it's designed to do, and why it's misapplication is so punishing for listeners.

[KirkP]

I have run the LJ into a PA (Yamaha Stagepas 300, among others) and it sounded good to me. That might not be a bad option, since I could take one speaker/mixer to the gig. And, have a PA if I ever need one.

I’ve experimented with sending the line out of my solid state amp to a Behringer B212 powered monitor. I thought it was acceptable for jazz with the treble rolled off on the monitor. I might have done one or two casual gigs with it as an extension speaker. Behringer also has 10” and 8” versions that might do the job. Powered monitors are relatively inexpensive and can be handy to have on hand if you occasionally need a basic PA.

(Behringer | Product | B212D)

[st.bede]

There is a good amount of talk about doubling amps and much increase in volume there is, in this thread: Pre-amps - What do they do?

My less the scientific take away is, that if one amp is partly working, then adding a second amp might do the trick.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I can't tell you why they don't just use 4 ohm speakers, but they don't.

I strongly suspect that it’s because they couldn’t safely include an external speaker jack that didn’t disable the internal speaker. And a jack to add a second speaker is apparently popular, even though most people never use it.

Once you go below 4 Ohms, you need an amp with a much larger power supply than it takes to drive a higher load. Power = current squared times resistance. So 300W into 4 Ohms is a current flow of about 8 1/2 A. Even 300W into 2 Ohms is about 12A with no increase in SPL over 300W into 8 Ohms. Pushing it to 400W (14+ A) is asking far too much from an amplifier not built to deliver that kind of oomph.

Even an Evans (which is a fabulous amp) rated to put 300W into a 4 Ohm load would probably have trouble driving a lower nominal impedance to SPLs above what the stock amp will achieve. Trying to push too low a load impedance for an amp will cause high distortion if it’s being pushed hard. It also causes overheating of power and output stages and either triggers thermal shutdown if so protected or takes out the PS &/or output devices if not protected.

[rpjazzguitar]

With class D amplification, a powered speaker doesn't weigh that much more than a passive speaker. Given the extra versatility of the powered speaker, I can't get enthused about buying a passive speaker.

When I got focused on buying a powered speaker, a couple of additional things occurred to me. One is that the speakers I was considering did not have EQ. No surprise there, but if I bought a second guitar amp I'd have EQ right on the face of the amp. Otherwise, I'd have to add a component.

Then, I tried running a friend's Mackie SRM350 (32 lbs) from my pedal board (Boss ME80). That worked fine. The SRM350 has a mic/line switch. It worked on either setting, although on Mic I had to turn the pedal board output way down and on Line I had to turn the speaker volume way up. Actually sounded okay either way.

But, the Alto I was considering does not have a Mic/Line switch. Rather, for mic, you just rotate the volume knob to 3 o'clock or more. And, when I tried this a couple of years back, the bass frequencies went crazy and the sound was unusable.

By coincidence, the Little Jazz and the 12 inch speaker version are both on sale today. $309 and $399, respectively. But, a second LJ might not add enough volume. Maybe the 12 inch version would be loud enough but it's about 23 lbs.

Too many options.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Once you go below 4 Ohms, you need an amp with a much larger power supply than it takes to drive a higher load. Power = current squared times resistance. So 300W into 4 Ohms is a current flow of about 8 1/2 A. Even 300W into 2 Ohms is about 12A with no increase in SPL over 300W into 8 Ohms. Pushing it to 400W (14+ A) is asking far too much from an amplifier not built to deliver that kind of oomph.

Ding!! We have a winner.

I was just on the Quilter site looking for a spec and I discovered that the Quilter Steelaire is built to deliver that kind of oomph - so it comes with both a 4 Ohm internal speaker and an extension jack. Quilter emphasizes that it has a power supply capable of "maximum voltage swing" and has headroom to pump 400W peaks into 2 Ohms. It has 2 speaker jacks, one for the 4 Ohm internal and a second for an external 4 or 8 Ohm cab. They're expensive, which is what you'd expect for an amp built to deliver that kind of power. I'm sure that's why so few SS amps come with 4 Ohm speakers.

Unlike SS amps, tube amps with output transformers don't make more power into low impedance loads than high. They make the same power into any load if the output transformer is wound to drive the speaker being used. They make less if there's an impedance mismatch between the speaker and the transformer that's driving it. Some Fender (and other) tube models have center-tapped 8 Ohm output transformers and "switched" extension speaker jacks (like those used to turn on the battery in an active guitar when you plug in a signal cable). When you plug a speaker into the extension jack, it opens a shunt to the center tap (which is a 4 Ohm output). This is how they maintain the same output power whether or not there's an extension cab connected.

[DRS]

I like the OP's original idea - XLR to a powered speaker for a live performance. Complete control of the volume requried.

[pingu]

Let me help...


FWIW, my main amps are a Blu 6 and a Superblock US driving either a 6.5" or a 10" Toob. I also have a 250 watt DV Mark head that sounds great through the Toobs and a pair of heavier cabs (an RE 10 and a RevSound 8) - but I rarely take the 250 or either of the traditional cabs out of the house. A Bud / Blu is loud enough for 95+% of gigs, but it's clean to the max and the Superblock does great smooth crunch.

Do you find the Superblock IS into the 6.5" toon gives enough
oomph to get with a medium loud drummer ?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Do you find the Superblock IS into the 6.5" toon gives enough
oomph to get with a medium loud drummer ?

That depends on the gig. It’s in the Princeton “weight class”, not the Vibrolux. It’s great on small group jazz dates with most drummers, and I take it if I’m invited to a jam (blues or jazz). If it won’t keep up with the drummer in a small group, the drummer’s too loud. It’s not enough for blues or commercial bands with horn sections.

I use it with the Dukes of Destiny, a long time Philly blues / dance / party band for which I’ve been first call sub for guitar and keys for a while now. On guitar, it hangs right in there with keys, harp (through a fantastic early BF Vibrolux that should be mine - it’s wasted on a harmonica ), bass, and a tight but loud drummer even on gigs without sound reinforcement. But I push it into a bit of breakup for that and set the limiter between noon and 1, and it’s pretty loud set like that. It wouldn’t be enough for a clean jazz date at the same volume levels. And for blues I remove the 0.33 mF cap that lives in the effects send jack.

When I’m the keyboard player (which I usually do with the Roland GR20 on my LP7 because I hate dragging a keyboard around), it has to be clean, and the SB through one Metro won’t handle it with that band. I use either a DV Mark EG250 head through my 10” Toob or a stereo rig with both of my Toob Metros, each driven by a Quilter Microblock. The B3 / Leslie is actually excellent through the little stereo rig. And both 6.5s plus both amps, their power supplies, and all necessary cables fit in a single gym bag.

[Gitterbug]

To Pingu: The members of the swing band I've been with since 2014 are mostly over 80 - progressively deafer and therewith louder. The drummer hits hard, the pianist even harder, especially under other people's solos. The cornet is always loud, while the new sax/clarinet player, mercifully shy at start, now has a personal mini-PA system to be on par. The bassist is the oldest but sharpest in the lot - no problem there. I hang on and get heard through a SBUS/Metro 6.5GP (the basic 20W version) combination. Given that we mostly play to seniors, the audience is admittedly dead silent (no pun intended.) But there have been up to 200 listeners in fairly large halls. In Espoo's largest auditorium, seating 600, I used a Toob 10S to be on the safe side. It felt too loud. No PA there either. Wedge monitors would have helped, as the Steinway Grand in the middle of the array spread us too far from each other. And of course, it was the first time our pianist had access to such a wonderful instrument, which he pounded to his heart's content. Finally, how the band members hear each other is not how the audience hears the band.

[rpjazzguitar]

As an aside, the volume I need in different situations seems to vary wildly, in the following sense.

The biggest room I've played, with an octet/nonet (a 5th horn sat in), probably had an audience of 200 and I did it with the Little Jazz -- and was heard well.

My regular quartet restaurant gig is much smaller and the LJ is not stressed.

I play in two big bands, without PA. I generally use the LJ and if there's a problem it's probably more with sound dispersion than actual volume. One of the bands plays with acoustic piano, unamplified, and all I have to do is be about as loud as that.

But, in another small group context, outdoors, I feel like the LJ does not keep up. It's a louder group, but can it really be louder than the big band? I can't really tell.

The point being, that I don't really feel able to reliably predict whether it's going to be loud enough or not.

[starjasmine]

But, in another small group context, outdoors, I feel like the LJ does not keep up. It's a louder group, but can it really be louder than the big band? I can't really tell.

Lack of walls to contain/reflect your sound means that outdoor gigs always requires more power or mic'ing through the PA with a monitor that allows you to hear your amp's sound: a second guitar cab that faces you or a house PA monitor (facing you or in-ear) that allows you to hear yourself in the mix. You could even DIY your own in-ear monitor from the guitar amp only: take a line out into a small mixer and listen to the control room out with one earbud; you hear yourself in one ear and the rest of the band with the other. Or wear some walkman-style over-ear phones that let you hear the outside world along with your own sound. You get the idea.

I haven't kept up with the whole thread, but I'm sure a number of good solutions have already been proposed for a suitable amp rig. My own anecdotal experience would be that a 60WRMS amp should be sufficient in small, low-volume jazz ensembles outdoors, and 100WRMS is better, if you can swing it. Note that 100WRMS won't be "loud" outdoors, it'll just let you have enough power to hear yourself without breaking up excessively.

[Woody Sound]

JMO, nothing wrong with 8" in certain situations. I do a very loud modern big band with a Quilter microPro 8". Never a problem, and for that band I actually prefer it to my MP12.