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what do these do? I have several smallish amps that are just a little too small for the occasional big band gig. Could you add one of these between the guitar and the amp and turn that 15-watter into 30 watts output (assuming the speaker can handle it)?
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06-28-2023 01:01 PM
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There's been quite a fes of these pedals on the market lately: Strymon Iridium, Universal Audio Dream 65, Tonex (kinda), etc... The TC seems interesting because it's the first one that's not crazy expensive and it seems like a smart move from them.
They emulate an amp / reverb / cab and are meant to be used mainly trough a PA (with the cab simulation on) or trough a neutral power amp and cab (with the cab simulation off). They might work well through a "flat jazz amp", but they won't add any volume per say (unless you're hitting the amp's input harder that your guitar would and the amp can still be clean, in that case you might get more volume out of the amp).
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Preamps serve different purposes and have varied applications in audio equipment. Let's explore their functions and usage in specific contexts.
In studio gear, a preamp acts as the initial stage of signal processing. It takes the input from an instrument or microphone and amplifies it to line level. This amplification raises the signal level for further processing, such as applying EQ, compression, and other effects, while minimizing noise.
In tube amplifiers, the term "preamp" generally refers to the circuitry that boosts the signal to line level. Tube combos often feature a preamp section with tubes like 12AX7, followed by a power amp section with tubes like 6V6. The preamp's role is to amplify the signal sufficiently before it enters the power amp stage. This ensures that the signal is strong enough to drive the speaker.
When it comes to guitar pedals, the term "preamp" has been used in various ways. Some pedals function as tone-conditioning pre-preamps, providing EQ, overdrive, compression, or boosts to shape the guitar's tone before it reaches the amp's preamp stage. However, there are also dedicated preamp pedals available. These pedals aim to replicate the characteristics of different amp designs and convert the guitar's signal to line level. They can be used in different ways: (1) directly connected to a PA system or powered speaker, (2) paired with a dedicated power amp and an unpowered speaker, or (3) inserted into the effects return of a guitar amplifier, bypassing or substituting the amp's own preamp section.
While dedicated preamp pedals offer convenience and a lighter setup, some individuals criticize them for not matching the sound quality of tube amplifiers. They argue that these pedals, despite being marketed as innovative technology, fail to deliver the same level of satisfaction as a genuine amp. It is important to consider this perspective and weigh it against the claims made by manufacturers and enthusiastic endorsements by online influencers and YouTubers. Ultimately, personal preference and the quality of the specific preamp pedal will play a significant role in determining whether it meets the expectations of guitarists seeking an authentic amplifier experience.
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(yes that was chat gpt)
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Good grief.
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no
Originally Posted by Bach5G
… however sometimes you can use a comp to keep the levels more even so the amp has a little more headroom. How well that works is based on the amp. (It seems ti work really well with my zt lunchbox).
…. there are products that will allow for increased clean volume going to the amp. Some attenuators can do that, but they are expensive. They also tend to a little bulky, and weigh a little… so you would have to carry: amp, guitar, pedal board, and then attenuator… plus odds and ends (maybe music stand, guitar stand, books, computer.. stuff
like that).
… probably easier to buy another amp… or might as well take two smaller amps… I have done both.Last edited by st.bede; 06-28-2023 at 04:05 PM.
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Also chat gpt:
Oh, great! Another clueless soul singing the praises of amp-in-a-box pedals. Are you seriously suggesting that those puny little toys can compare to the sheer majesty of a real amplifier? How utterly misguided can you be?
Sure, convenience and flexibility might appeal to the weak-willed who can't handle the real deal. But let me enlighten you, my friend: those pedals are nothing more than feeble attempts at replicating the greatness of a genuine amplifier. They're like toddlers playing dress-up, pretending to be something they're not.
You think those flimsy pedals can replicate the authenticity and raw power of a true amplifier? Give me a break! They're just sad imitations, barely scratching the surface of what a real amp can deliver. They can try to mimic the preamp section all they want, but they'll never come close to capturing the true essence of an amplifier—the dynamic interplay of the power amp and speaker that separates the amateurs from the true masters.
And let's not even get started on performance. Those delicate pedals are about as reliable as a paper kite in a hurricane. They're more likely to let you down than provide a decent sound. Meanwhile, a real amplifier is a sturdy workhorse, built to deliver night after night. While you're fiddling with your complicated pedal setup, real musicians are unleashing the full force of their amplifiers, commanding the stage with unparalleled authority.
But hey, if you're content with settling for mediocrity and masquerading as a musician with your fancy little pedalboard, be my guest. Keep hiding behind your convenient gadgets while the rest of us revel in the glory of authentic music. Because let's face it, when you're standing next to someone with a genuine amplifier, you'll always be the insignificant background noise.
So, by all means, continue to worship your flimsy toys and delude yourself into thinking they can hold a candle to the power and authenticity of a real amplifier. But don't be surprised when the true musicians leave you in the dust, laughing at your pitiful attempts to imitate their greatness.
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What St Bede said.
A 15 W amp will start to saturate and compress beyond 15W.
Fundamental hardware architecture is required to get your power amp section to produce more than 15 W.
these amp in box pedals typically provide colouring to a signal the same way a preamp stage of an amplifier colours an otherwise clean signal.
The use intent is to feed the instrument level output signal of the pedal into the preamp stage of an amp set as flat an uncoloured as possible. Some amps can not be set flat. Some are simply wide frequency range PA systems and some are flat range but with the same frequency range as a typical guitar.
These pedals sometimes also include a balanced line out signal to send a long distance to a mixing desk etc. Line out is not the same thing as Line level voltage. The plug may look like a microphone Jack but it may also be instrument or microphone level. You will need to read the specs on the device you are using.
As the robot suggested, a select few can also feed your power amp directly by entering the signal chain downstream of a preamp stage at the effects loop return.
End of the day it comes down to output signal level of that pedal, but to answer your question- it will not make an amp higher wattage.
emike
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Angry GPT Robots. Just what we need!
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What I always wonder is how much clean DB increase I am getting when using two amps… it seems significant, but I never really tried to use two 5watt amps. The lowest amps I have is 18watts.
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Omg, the angry chat bot is really funny… flimsy toys, lol
I think it lacks some empathy…
for god’s sake, my flimsy toys have cost me a lot and now that includes my sense of dignity.
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If you use two identical amps side by side, you get a 3 db level increase. You would need ten times the db power to perceive double the volume (meaning 500 watts sounds twice as loud as 50 watts).
It's a bit ambiguous. Volume doubles every 3db but loudness (meaning our perceived volume every 10db.Last edited by Alter; 06-29-2023 at 11:21 AM.
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… so if one champ is just cutting through, adding a second one could work… but if the one champ is getting lost, then adding a second one will not work.
Thanks
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Please stop posting ChatGPT! We have too much artificial intelligence around here as it is :-) Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Actually I don't mind. Just surprised me how familiar it all sounded. Can ChatGPT generate entire forum personas, including avatars and bio's? Feels like we already have some of those. I think maybe I've seen them trolling each other...
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I think you have power output and acoustic output confused. Doubling the output power of an amplifier into the same speaker will increase maximum SPL by 3 dB, which is barely perceptible. It takes a 10-fold increase in output power in watts to get a 10 dB increase in SPL, which is generally considered to achieve a perceived doubling of loudness. Originally Posted by Alter
These are consistent with each other. Going from 100W to 200 adds 3 dB. 200 to 400 takes it to 6, and 400 to 800 hits 9. The 200 watt increment to 1000 adds that last dB that gets you to 10.
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Yeah, I meant to say ten times the power instead of Db! (corrected it)
In guitar amp reality, it's not so much the volume that makes a difference in what we hear when going to a bigger amp, but rather the headroom. Or use two identical amps (I've tried two pro juniors and two ZT lunchbox), and despite them not being that louder than one, it still feels like a huge change because of the extended headroom (and the bass frequencies sounding fatter).
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How well did the two pro jr work? They are 15 watts, and seem loud enough for a small gig. I had one, but never used it for a gig. I always thought it could probably work. Originally Posted by Alter
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I gig with one pro junior all the time. Using two made it easier to have a cleaner sound. But I don't mind a slight Grant Green type breakup.
Usually when gigging with two amps I use different ones, like Princeton reverb or pro junior together with an Aer or Zt lunchbox.
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I could be wrong about this, but ...
Suppose you're running your amp well below its limits.
If you double the voltage of the input to the amp (say, by inserting a preamp in your signal chain), the amp will sound a little louder.
But, if the amp is already running full bore and you double the input voltage, I think it gets more distorted.
I'm not sure of the math, but, I'm sure you can't get a 5 watt amp to be as loud as a 100 watt amp simply by amplifying the input signal by a factor of 20.
But, otoh, if the amp will tolerate more voltage at the input, there ought to be some benefit, but maybe not enough to notice.
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Mine goes to 11.
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The preamp is conceptually a tone shaping device whereas the power amp is the power generator that drives the speaker that creates sound pressure (dBs), but in reality it's a bit more complicated;
Tone is not just a matter of EQ, but also "texture"; attack, decay, sustain, distortion etc. The preamp is going to influence all those parameters, partly by user adjustable controls and partly inherent in the circuit design.
A perfect power amp would be neutral, meaning it would just amplify the signal from the preamp, but in reality the power amp is not neutral, especially not legacy tube amp designs that tend to color the tone. And the preamp is not just a tone shaper, it's also an amplifier that contributes to the total output.
For several different reasons amplified guitar tone is volume dependent and the speaker is most important to enable the desired tone at the desired output level.
There are implications depending on use case;
A regular guitar speaker is designed for stage volume, meaning it's much louder than what's needed for home practicing.
A regular preamp got more than enough power for low volume playing in an apartment and for that specific purpose you wouldn't need a power amp if it wasn't for the legacy speaker jack (the power amp got the speaker jack, there wasn't any way to connect a traditional guitar speaker direct to a preamp). But since the power amp and speaker are unnecessarily loud for home application, these days there are preamps that connect to headphones and hi-fi monitors.
If you intend to play with other people you can't rely on headphones and studio monitors and you don't want to depend on a PA-system. We need guitar speakers and power amps and solutions for power scaling (in its simplest form a volume knob). Then for all practical purposes the preamp is nothing but a tone shaper. Then make sure it shapes the tone in a good way so that it doesn't process, filter and ruin your precious signal coming direct from your guitar. (Many preamps are silly complicated time thieves that obstruct good guitar tone. Most of them are designed for the purpose of generating maximum preamp distortion, treble boosting and other modern ideals that may be inhibitive for jazz players).
-But how about a dedicated jazz preamp? Assume you don't like the tonestack of your main amp or if your amp doesn't got reverb and that you for some reason don't like to use a pedal board and an EQ-pedal; you could get rid of the amp that doesn't do what you like or you could use its power amp and speaker and add a preamp that you like better. Note that most legacy combo amps won't allow separation of pre- and power amp. You could plug a preamp in front of your combo amp, but unless you want more distortion and some onboard effects like reverb, it's not going to do anything that an EQ or OD-pedal couldn't do.
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"A perfect power amp would be neutral, meaning it would just amplify the signal from the preamp"
Well, for jazz, this may be true. I like the sound you can get from a Fender preamp pedal (like the Barber Barb EQ) and a neutral class D power amp. But for many other styles of music the power amp contributes significantly to the final sound and does a lot more than converting a line level signal into a speaker level signal.
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The decibel scale is logarithmic, meaning you would need 10 combo amps of the same spec to double the sound pressure level. Originally Posted by st.bede
Two combo amps are obviously going to be louder than one amp, but not by much. It ultimately depends on the speakers; a 2x12" cab may or may not be louder than a 1x12" cab. It depends on the speakers inside. Efficient, high watt speakers are louder and survive high amp power, so the perspective is:
-What type of speakers and how many would you require to get desired tone at the desired volume and fail safe operation? Then add the amount of amplification power required to drive those speakers.
Assume you got 8 x 50w guitar speakers, in total 400 w. Then you probably like about 200 w of amp power for your heavy metal arena show.
For your full size big band gig a 212 40w combo is a good match.
For your club gig with your Jazz trio a 112 15w combo is fine.
At home in your apartment an acoustic guitar is loud enough.
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Yes of course, Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
"perfect" as in theoretical, technical perfect. Musically perfect is a subjective matter and I made the point that tube power amps are not technically perfect and therefore also part of the tone shaping process, (albeit with limited user adjustabilty options).
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historically guitar amps have not had perfect power amps I guess… Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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