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Hello all,
I’m having a luthier custom make me an instrument and was thinking of going with a 14.75” to 15” carved top floater. Think of a premium George benson style guitar.
The luthier, however, recommended against it. Saying that it would be bright and untamable.
Does anybody else have experience with a guitar with these specs?
I’ve played an es-446, which I liked quite a bit and is an even smaller body with a carved spruce top, but it has a mahogany neck and rosewood fingerboard, whereas I was planning on mine having a maple neck and ebony fingerboard.
thanks
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04-11-2023 07:11 AM
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I have a Slaman 14.75" carved top ( and back). It's certainly brighter than equivalent 16" guitars, I think partly because of the ebony board. However, this guitar has a mahog' neck, rather than maple, which would tend towards " warmth" - so, I'd guess a maple neck would add more brightness in your proposed build.
The guitar is not " untameable", though; feedback is no worse than others, although I did eventually install a ( potted, balanced coils) classic 57 pickup in it, which helped to damp down the brightness and " stringiness". The issue with the guitar for me is that of ergonomics; it's hard to get used to after 40 years of 175s and L4s.
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There are other factors to consider other than the lower bout width. The body depth is also quite important. So is the wood and construction choices.
E.g. something like an ES-330 (thin laminate 16") vs classical or a smaller body flat top (deep, 14-15"). The 330 will be much brighter or rather lacking in bass.
Then again electronics and an amp have a huge impact.
I don't believe that whatever you've got in mind would not work. It would probably be different, subjectively better or worse depending on the person and context. That's why we got top pros play pretty much anything from a Steinberger paddle to Super 400.
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There are many production guitars of that size. Perhaps locate a luthier who already has forms for that size instrument. It can be a considerable investment to build them from scratch for just one guitar, so perhaps that plays into his reluctance. If he has no experience with building smaller instruments his first efforts might not be perfect.
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Here's a recording I did some years back on a 15" carved Marchione arch top
The basic specs are
Nut Width: 1 11/16”
Scale Length: 25 1/2”
Neck Depth at first Fret: > .86”
Marchione ergonomic neck shape
Lower Boute: 15”
Fingerboard, Headplate and Fittings: Ebony
Top: Euro Spruce
Back,Sides, and Neck: Flamed Maple
Fret: Stainless Steel
Locking Machine Heads: Sperzel
Available in a variety of lacquer colors upon request
I've played a bunch at GAL, NAMM, etc, so I've met a number of luthiers. They have styles and comfort zones just like musicians do. I don't think a carved 15" is has to be 'bright and untameable', but maybe that particular builder's would be. Best wishes for your instrument!
PKLast edited by paulkogut; 04-12-2023 at 09:56 AM.
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Who's the luthier?? Plenty of people successfully building "smaller" archtops ... maybe use someone else [if these are the specs you want].
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Are you talking about its acoustic voice or plugged in? Once it’s plugged in it really is not an issue unless it’s about feedback mostly from low end.
I sure love a great Johnny Smith or L-5C style carved top. But truth be told I find myself using my Benedetto Laminate 14” with built in Humbuckers mostly!
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If the luthier has negatives about a future build, I'd go somewhere else..
For the rest of your question you can hear a 14" in this Victor Baker video
and a full description here: Available Instrument! Model 14 Custom archtop guitar. Pics, video, music! SOLD SOLD SOLD » Inside Victor Baker's Shop
Best,
S
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I remember going to guitar shows and hearing boutique/solo/semi-pro luthiers all laughing about how they kill themselves to develop a guitar that is special or uniquely theirs, only to have someone come to them and say,
“Hey man, I absolutely love all those beautiful and faithful recreations of small bodied, early 20th century, fan braced parlor guitars. Can you make me one in multi-scale, double top, X-braced, 17” jumbo size?”
If you want a non-standard size, find someone who specializes in making that.
FWIW, I have heard deep bassy ukuleles to rival a good classical guitar. The body size doesn’t determine the voice —assuming you know how to voice the top.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Campellone used to offer a 15" EP model with a carved top. Lovely guitar. He only made a handful of them, and doesn't currently offer it on his site, but he does have the parts to make one if you are interested. No idea what his current waiting list is like, but he will respond if you call or send him a note.
401-949-3716
[email protected]
MCampellone.com
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That reluctance is more a reflection on the maker than any inherent design limitations. I've built 15"s without that any problems; the guitars did sound a little closer to the sensibilities of a classical though, on the attack. Factours like material (use of mahogany over maple, rosewood over ebony), arching (lower with a rounded arch and thicker graduations), and overall design (which is not merely a 16-17" scaled down), have a lot to do with what you'll get.
Look at the Sadowsky Bruno or 15" guitars, the Benson (admittedly a laminate) and you can decide what is possible.
I would take your luthier's advice though, if he doesn't feel he can control the outcome of a 15" commission, I'd take that as a cue to have him build to his strengths, and you find someone who can build you one with confidence.
Gosh, you can even commission one from China, pay the upcharge for really nice wood and design exactly what you want. I've seen 15" Chinese custom builds with specified thicker top that were quite nicely balanced and when they broke in (about a two year process on the one I saw) it was a beauty that was mid ranged voiced and with a Benedetto floating PU sounded clear, articulate, woody and warm plugged in.
Good luckLast edited by Jimmy blue note; 04-28-2023 at 04:11 PM.
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...even a 17" could be too bright, even brighter than a smaller body. The brightness comes from the front structure, the wood, the bridge material and contact to the top, the luthier tuning mainly. So its not the size. However the body (the bass) comes from the size mainly. So if you mean weakness, and plinkyness that is possible that one find a smaller guitar weaker, plinkier, less bodyer, but this subjective.
pretty counterintuitive, but the brightness has less to do with the size.
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Thanks everyone, quite helpful. A lot of things to consider.
the specs I was considering are as follows:
- Solid spruce top
- ebony fretboard
- maple neck back and sides
- 25 1/2” scale
- floating pickup
I noticed a lot, but not all of the examples above incorporate mahogany necks. Interesting to note
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This one seems quite interesting. Wasn’t able to find any sound samples online unfortunately. Would be great to hear and potentially play one before buying
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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[So you're not going to reveal the luthier?] Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
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Good luck with that. Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
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No, I don't really think that's fair. I asked him for his honest opinion on the potential tonal quality of the build I had laid out--my intent isn't to bad mouth him, and I feel it's quite easy for things to be taken out of context or get misconstrued on an internet forum. Originally Posted by marcwhy
Not saying that's your intent, but I just want to be cognizant of how it could be perceived.
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Well, it won't sound like a 16, which doesn't sound like a 17 - but:
1. Ask DannyW about his Lee Rit L5 signature, or just L5 signature.
2. There's the post today showing Martin Taylor and Birele Lagrene holding VERY small archtops (I haven't heard them).
3. Finally there's this. They used to have recordings both amplified and unplugged. Bummer that's no longer there.
Bambino Elite™ | Benedetto Guitars
Bottom line - it could sound great, but don't forget sentence one, above.
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Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
A dozen were made, between 2009 and 2017. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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The "try before you buy" philosophy -- although wise at some level -- is often difficult when buying custom gear (unless you have a buddy who happens to have what you want!). There are some here who would never buy a guitar unless they played it first, and others who have "trusted the process/luthier" and purchased without playing (and many with great success). It's a personal preference, I guess. [I'm in the latter camp, BTW; Campy was mentioned earlier, and I'd also throw in Steve Holst for what you're looking at!] Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
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Maegan Wells makes archtops down to 14", and from what I've heard they're all good-sounding acoustically.
However, I think you cannot get around some kind of relationship between bass-deepness and "displacement" (internal volume of the box).
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And out of that dozen, I would bet that none of the owners would be willing to let a stranger play the guitar. I certainly wouldn't. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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A 'hog neck and shorter scale might tame some of that brightness if you're worried about it. Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
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Yeah, it seems to me most of your specs when combined could lend itself to a brighter instrument.
Same choice of woods as the Comins GCS 16, which is a fine archtop, but it has a 16" body and 25" scale.
Maybe you can comprise on 1-2 details (and hopefully wouldn't regret).
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