No Lie: “They All Sound the Same” re: Amp Modelers

**NSJ** · 03-16-2023, 02:47 PM

i.e,, TLDR: TLDW: they all do a good job of capturing the initial sound, there are too many variables that go into a final sound (mic placement, IR, cab, pedals, ambiance of the room, etc), to try to differentiate it at a fundamental, ah-ha level is borderline cork-sniffing. Basically, at a certain volume level, an electric guitar is going to sound most other electric guitars.

**jorgemg1984** · 03-16-2023, 03:59 PM

I've had and tried quite a few modelers - I think he's partially right. Technology has developed so much that most modeleres sound good these days, even the cheap ones - if the user knows what he's doing. Still, from price to form to software useability to the quality of some fx, there's plenty of difference beteeeen modelers.

In a way his argument could been made for a lot of different things - a lot of archtops sound similar (and a lot of pickups, etc). But in the Internet era gas and hype are very strong, just look at the buzz around the new Tonex pedal.

I like the Tone Junkie channel, but the youtbe modelling space is getting too crowded and you need to "clickbait" every now and then

**Spook410** · 03-17-2023, 01:34 AM

It's nice that we are at a point where we can say inexpensive modelers sound OK.

Wish we could say the same for inexpensive FRFR speakers to go with them.

**NSJ** · 03-17-2023, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

It's nice that we are at a point where we can say inexpensive modelers sound OK.

Wish we could say the same for inexpensive FRFR speakers to go with them.

I think you just nailed the weak link in the chain to the cross right there. SO TERRIBLE.

**HCarlH** · 04-12-2023, 12:12 AM

I don't care that that guy says, I've had my Kemper for 10 years and it's the warmest sounding of all of them. These Youtube channels only care about churning out constant "content" to get views and $$$.

**ruger9** · 04-12-2023, 06:38 AM

I have to say, in my limited experience, they don't.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure what is a "modeler" vs "solid state" vs "hybrid" anymore.

I love my Roland Blues Cube Artist. It sounds and feels like a tube amp. It's fantastic. Is it solid state? Digital? Hybrid? No idea. I just know it sounds fantastic. It's so good it's all I use with my band, I don't feel the need to haul my beloved tube amp to rehearsal and gigs- the Roland is that good. (it's not 100% as good as my tube amp, but it's at least 90%).

I tried a Katana MkII, and I thought it was awful (unless you're into metal and thin-sounding tones). It was a WORLD of difference. Couldn't get a decent tone out of it to save my life.

I haven't had the opportunity to try the Fender ToneMasters yet (digital I think?), but I read nothing but raves.

**Spook410** · 04-13-2023, 05:15 AM

I like my Roland Blues Cube Artist as well. However I'm kind of pissed that I have to give them $200-$250 for gimmicky 'tone cubes' to get different sounds out of it. I don't care all that much for the tweed sound so it was a necessary added expense. Should have been included or available via download at this price point. Though in all fairness, you can't even get a variety of sounds with a Fender Tonemaster.

**ruger9** · 04-13-2023, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

I like my Roland Blues Cube Artist as well. However I'm kind of pissed that I have to give them $200-$250 for gimmicky 'tone cubes' to get different sounds out of it. I don't care all that much for the tweed sound so it was a necessary added expense. Should have been included or available via download at this price point. Though in all fairness, you can't even get a variety of sounds with a Fender Tonemaster.

I can't argue with the opinion (that I share) that the Tone Capsules are WAY overpriced. And the amp isn't cheap to begin with. BUT. When I consider how good it sounds, how easy it is to move (to gigs), and all the hours of perfect service it's given me, I can't complain.... I bought the amp new and the tone capsule used (it was still $125), but the total cost was STILL less than my 2 favorite tube amps I keep at home: a Bad Cat and a Swart. So really, I can't complain about the price. Yes, having no tubes and being PCB construction, I'm sure they cost less to manufacture, I know some people have an issue with that ("PCB amps should be cheaper than handwired"), but again: it WAS still cheaper, and I don't think in those terms anymore anyway: I think in terms of performance, not what's under the hood.

Does it sound great? Is it reliable? Is it easy to move around (for those of us who gig)? Then it's worth the price, regardless of construction.

**DawgBone** · 04-13-2023, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

I have to say, in my limited experience, they don't.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure what is a "modeler" vs "solid state" vs "hybrid" anymore.

I love my Roland Blues Cube Artist. It sounds and feels like a tube amp. It's fantastic. Is it solid state? Digital? Hybrid? No idea. I just know it sounds fantastic. It's so good it's all I use with my band, I don't feel the need to haul my beloved tube amp to rehearsal and gigs- the Roland is that good. (it's not 100% as good as my tube amp, but it's at least 90%).

I tried a Katana MkII, and I thought it was awful (unless you're into metal and thin-sounding tones). It was a WORLD of difference. Couldn't get a decent tone out of it to save my life.

I haven't had the opportunity to try the Fender ToneMasters yet (digital I think?), but I read nothing but raves.

I consider all those amps to be mediocre at best. Usable, decent tone, and very low buck disposable but their popularity centers around how new it is, how much ad campaigning the companies are putting behind it, and how many honeymoon reviews get posted on the forums and youtube. The tonemasters are hot right now for that. A few years ago people were raving about the Boss. Now it's just a piece of shit and the tonemaster series is the way to go. I've no doubt in the next year the tonemaster disappointment threads will start popping up, sales will slump, and someone will introduce another low production cost high sales profit clunker that the forums will go crazy over again. It's all digital modeling crap but people seem to expect new barriers in tone are broken with each new model. They aren't.

**Christian Miller** · 04-13-2023, 09:01 AM

I dunno I play through a TM twin once a month (it’s the house amp for a regular gig) and tbh I can’t tell any difference to my fender tube amp at least in that context (I can with other ss amps). I know people claim a difference. In fact I’m quite up for buying one based on its gig performance .

Maybe I’m just bad at music and have no idea. You are not alone in your view Dennis.

I’ll check back here in a year I guess, and we’ll see.

It strikes me clean fender tones are not the hardest to model….

**Christian Miller** · 04-13-2023, 09:06 AM

Tbh tonally I feel like my guitar makes a bigger difference than whether I’m plugged into a real tube amp or a modeller. Response wise ss amps can be a bit ‘flat’ feeling to play through but I’ve not noticed this with the TM.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-13-2023, 09:11 AM

Modeling has certainly gotten "good enough" for my ears.

But I'm not one to chase a particular tone anyway. That's a recipe for frustration. I'd rather just sound good, and with what I have and what is available today, there's really no reason I can't always do that.

**Tal_175** · 04-13-2023, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Tbh tonally I feel like my guitar makes a bigger difference than whether I’m plugged into a real tube amp or a modeller. Response wise ss amps can be a bit ‘flat’ but I’ve not noticed this with the TM.

Yes, ss amps have that immediate, flat and dry thing especially on the high strings. But I find that even amp modelling pedals like Tech 21 blonde or Strymon go a long way in softening the edge of SS amps and tube-ifying them.

I think an SS amp + a tube modelling pedal with a good EQ vs a real tube amp is really a coin toss for cleans.

**ruger9** · 04-13-2023, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Modeling has certainly gotten "good enough" for my ears.

But I'm not one to chase a particular tone anyway. That's a recipe for frustration. I'd rather just sound good, and with what I have and what is available today, there's really no reason I can't always do that.

EXACTLY. This is why I went with the Roland: I need an amp that is easy to carry, loud enough for any gig, yet also sounds good (the same) at any volume (turned down low in a small bar)... = Roland. It sounds great and feels good. No, it's not my tube amps, but in a band situation the differences that exist are very little to non-existent in a mix.

If I were a solo-only jazz guitarist, maybe I would consider hauling a Princeton around (or something similar: tweed deluxe, Swart, etc), but when you're in a band, and everything is mic'ed, it just doesn't matter much, if at all. The GUITAR however, remains of the upmost importance. That's your physical connection with the music. If that ain't right, nothing else will be.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 04-13-2023, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

EXACTLY. This is why I went with the Roland: I need an amp that is easy to carry, loud enough for any gig, yet also sounds good (the same) at any volume (turned down low in a small bar)... = Roland. It sounds great and feels good. No, it's not my tube amps, but in a band situation the differences that exist are very little to non-existent in a mix.

If I were a solo-only jazz guitarist, maybe I would consider hauling a Princeton around (or something similar: tweed deluxe, Swart, etc), but when you're in a band, and everything is mic'ed, it just doesn't matter much, if at all. The GUITAR however, remains of the upmost importance. That's your physical connection with the music. If that ain't right, nothing else will be.

If you play multiple styles requiring amplification that's expensive, heavy, hard to find, etc (like a 6 foot long pedal board, a 60 pound head, and a 4x12 stack), I can see how a good modeling amp could make life a whole lot easier. But if what you need is straight ahead jazz tone, the only roles I can see for modelers are recording and as a DI into a house sound reinforcement system (which is FRFR by definition). But the best a modeler into house sound can do is replicate the sound of mic'ing your own amp + effects etc through the same system.

I don't even drag a Princeton around for solo gigs any more. Top quality class D combos like the Bud / Blu and heads through a Toob make some really beautiful jazz sounds. They're loud enough for most gigs and have good DI outputs for reinforcement if needed. The guitar is definitely the key to great sound. I think my carved Eastman archtops through the Blu make a wonderfully joyous noise. Here's a track I made for the Practical Standards thread in the Songs forum this month. It's my 16" Elite through the Blu 6 (sitting on the desktop - it's not even on the floor) mic'ed from a few inches with my TASCAM digital recorder's onboard capsules. This is the sound I've loved for the entire 64 years I've been playing the guitar. I feel no need for a modeler and am fairly certain that I'll continue to be happy with this sound forever!

**jorgemg1984** · 04-13-2023, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

If you play multiple styles requiring amplification that's expensive, heavy, hard to find, etc (like a 6 foot long pedal board, a 60 pound head, and a 4x12 stack), I can see how a good modeling amp could make life a whole lot easier. But if what you need is straight ahead jazz tone, the only roles I can see for modelers are recording and as a DI into a house sound reinforcement system (which is FRFR by definition). But the best a modeler into house sound can do is replicate the sound of mic'ing your own amp + effects etc through the same system.

I don't even drag a Princeton around for solo gigs any more. Top quality class D combos like the Bud / Blu and heads through a Toob make some really beautiful jazz sounds. They're loud enough for most gigs and have good DI outputs for reinforcement if needed. The guitar is definitely the key to great sound. I think my carved Eastman archtops through the Blu make a wonderfully joyous noise. Here's a track I made for the Practical Standards thread in the Songs forum this month. It's my 16" Elite through the Blu 6 (sitting on the desktop - it's not even on the floor) mic'ed from a few inches with my TASCAM digital recorder's onboard capsules. This is the sound I've loved for the entire 64 years I've been playing the guitar. I feel no need for a modeler and am fairly certain that I'll continue to be happy with this sound forever!

I can dial clean straight ahead jazz sounds out of a modelling rig that, IMHO, sound infinitely better than any Henriksen.

**Tal_175** · 04-13-2023, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

If you play multiple styles requiring amplification that's expensive, heavy, hard to find, etc (like a 6 foot long pedal board, a 60 pound head, and a 4x12 stack), I can see how a good modeling amp could make life a whole lot easier. But if what you need is straight ahead jazz tone, the only roles I can see for modelers are recording and as a DI into a house sound reinforcement system (which is FRFR by definition). But the best a modeler into house sound can do is replicate the sound of mic'ing your own amp + effects etc through the same system.

I don't even drag a Princeton around for solo gigs any more. Top quality class D combos like the Bud / Blu and heads through a Toob make some really beautiful jazz sounds. They're loud enough for most gigs and have good DI outputs for reinforcement if needed. The guitar is definitely the key to great sound. I think my carved Eastman archtops through the Blu make a wonderfully joyous noise. Here's a track I made for the Practical Standards thread in the Songs forum this month. It's my 16" Elite through the Blu 6 (sitting on the desktop - it's not even on the floor) mic'ed from a few inches with my TASCAM digital recorder's onboard capsules. This is the sound I've loved for the entire 64 years I've been playing the guitar. I feel no need for a modeler and am fairly certain that I'll continue to be happy with this sound forever!

That sounds great. I don't think tube vs SS distinction is that important for archtops, especially for the more acoustically constructed ones. Good SS amps, acoustic amps or even bass amps do just fine. But I think solidbody or semi hollows still benefit from tubes or modelling amps.

I'm not saying that telecaster through Henriksen or Polytone sounds bad. But there is more a noticeable difference in tone with solid body guitars between purely solid state amps and modeling (or tube) amps.

**Christian Miller** · 04-13-2023, 12:48 PM

The Princeton is nice for small gigs and my practice room but tbh it can get a bit pinched with a band. The TM twin sounds the same as the real thing to my (probably rubbish) ears, is comparable weight and a ton more headroom. the real thing is not going to be practical haha.

It’s pretty hard to pass up that deal tbh if I was shopping for a gigging amp band. In the mean time my TOOBs and quilter do what I need for small gigs and easy to DI.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 04-13-2023, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I can dial clean straight ahead jazz sounds out of a modelling rig that, IMHO, sound infinitely better than any Henriksen.

And that’s why there are chocolate and vanilla. You’re happy and I’m happy - who could ask for anything more?

**jorgemg1984** · 04-13-2023, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

And that’s why there are chocolate and vanilla. You’re happy and I’m happy - who could ask for anything more?

Agreed, I meant no disrespect - just stating my preference

And for the record, I prefer chocolate to vanilla!

**RJVB** · 04-13-2023, 04:42 PM

Well, doh ... the better two amp modellers do their job, the more they will sound the same (when modelling the same target, evidently).

**Spook410** · 04-13-2023, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

.. It's all digital modeling crap but people seem to expect new barriers in tone are broken with each new model. They aren't.

As much as I like my '81 Fender Concert, I'm not in the luddite camp. The barriers have long fallen. Now it's a question of cost and features. And what sounded good 5 years ago and has shown itself to be reliable is still good sounding and reliable. Quilter is a good example. So is the Roland Blues Cube Artist. And I think Tonemasters, brilliant in their clone simplicity, have shown this as well.

That being said I'm still not seeing a good FRFR solution for standalone modeling rigs.

**Spook410** · 04-13-2023, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I can dial clean straight ahead jazz sounds out of a modelling rig that, IMHO, sound infinitely better than any Henriksen.

A Zoom into a Alto powered speaker (being an example of an inexpensive set up) offers a great deal more than lunch box rigs to my ears. Of course.. that would be my ears and not someone else's.

**jorgemg1984** · 04-13-2023, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

A Zoom into a Alto powered speaker (being an example of an inexpensive set up) offers a great deal more than lunch box rigs to my ears. Of course.. that would be my ears and not someone else's.

I agree! And there's better stuff than the Zoom - especially cabs and amps, the fx are quite good on the Zoom.

**Spook410** · 04-13-2023, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by RJVB

Well, doh ... the better two amp modellers do their job, the more they will sound the same (when modelling the same target, evidently).

True.. but with many modelers you get more than the one model. Switching between a Fender DeLuxe model and a Vox model on the Strymon Iridium yields quite a different sound.