Comparison of tones from 339 vs 335 body sizes

[Greywolf]

I have both , it is really more pickup dependent . Tonally they are very close , I also have a CS 356 and a Heritage H 535 which is their 335. The 339 is a bit more friendly due to its smaller size.

[Tal_175]

If you ask people listening to that test whether it’s one guitar at two different settings or two separate guitars I doubt that people would get it right at a rate greater than chance. Similarly, if you play one of those recordings and ask “LP or 335” set to sound as similar as possible I don’t think people can reliably guess right.

Tangentially, I have a hollow body (flats 12s) and a semi hollow body (rounds 19s). I have recordings where I can’t immediately tell which is which. Eventually, yes, but I have to really listen to the nuances. And these are recordings I made myself relatively recently. A LP and a 335 are way more similar than this.

I agree that an LP and 335 would be more similar than a full hollow body guitar vs any of the two. The differences may not be apparent in a casual listening. But I believe especially the difference in the attack characteristics can be observed when listening carefully in a good recording. Also don't forget that any difference noticeable by the listener means there is a tenfold difference that the player experiences. I actually didn't know that whether or not there is a discernible difference between solid body and semi-hollow construction is a controversial topic.

[Tal_175]

Also I don't see asking listeners to determine whether the listening test involved two different guitars or the same guitar in different settings is relevant to the discussion if they can detect a difference. For example it would also be very difficult to distinguish between humbuckers and single coils (or between any pickups) if one is allowed to use different EQ, boost and compression settings for each pickup in the recording. But it wouldn't be reasonable to conclude from such a test that there is not discernable difference between different pickups.

[John A.]

Also I don't see asking listeners to determine whether the listening test involved two different guitars or the same guitar in different settings is relevant to the discussion if they can detect a difference. For example it would also be very difficult to distinguish between humbuckers and single coils (or between any pickups) if one is allowed to use different EQ, boost and compression settings for each pickup in the recording. But it wouldn't be reasonable to conclude from such a test that there is not discernable difference between different pickups.

My point is "I hear a difference between those two sounds” and “I know what each of those sounds is” are not the same thing. If some people can easily distinguish between the two guitar types under blind conditions, I’d expect them to know what each sound is, not merely that two recordings sound different. I’m skeptical that there are many people who can do that.

[Tal_175]

My point is "I hear a difference between those two sounds” and “I know what each of those sounds is” are not the same thing. If some people can easily distinguish between the two guitar types under blind conditions, I’d expect them to know what each sound is, not merely that two recordings sound different. I’m skeptical that there are many people who can do that.

What I mean is people who are very familiar with the distinct characteristics of different guitars (say LP vs ES 335) would be paying attention and listening for these characteristics in order to distinguish between these guitars in a well made recording or in a live blindfolded setting (like in the Anderson's video). You can perhaps fool them by recording the same guitar in different settings but if the test is sincerely about finding out whether an experienced guitarist would be able to hear these characteristics or not, they would do the recording in a reasonably pure way.

[Tal_175]

I’m skeptical that there are many people who can do that.

Let me ask another way. If two people are in a room with an amp and two guitars (LP and ES 335), one is blind folded. The other one alternates playing the guitars. Neck pickup, clean, chords, solos, varying dynamics, different volume levels. Are you saying that it'd take an unusually gifted person to be able hear the distinct characteristics of these guitars and distinguish between them when blindfolded? (I mean being able tell which one is an ES 335 and which one is an LP, not just that they sound different)

[Vihar]

Are you saying that it'd take an unusually gifted person to be able hear the distinct characteristics of these guitars and distinguish between them when blindfolded? (I mean being able tell which one is an ES 335 and which one is an LP, not just that they sound different)

The very subtle differences that are audible between the Gibsons in this video are mainly the differences between the pickups (even the SG's aforementioned slightly different neck pickup position is indiscernible):

[Tal_175]

The very subtle differences that are audible between the Gibsons in this video are mainly the differences between the pickups (even the SG's aforementioned slightly different neck pickup position is indiscernible):

Well, I strongly disagree. LP and ES 335 sound different (in the clean, neck pickup position) if you skip back and forth in the recording. LP has a more immediate and a bit thinner attack, ES 335 has a rounder attack for starters.

You might need to use a headphone and know what you're listening for.

[John A.]

Let me ask another way. If two people are in a room with an amp and two guitars (LP and ES 335), one is blind folded. The other one alternates playing the guitars. Neck pickup, clean, chords, solos, varying dynamics, different volume levels. Are you saying that it'd take an unusually gifted person to be able hear the distinct characteristics of these guitars and distinguish between them when blindfolded? (I mean being able tell which one is an ES 335 and which one is an LP, not just that they sound different)

Yes, I'm saying that, though I don't know that "gifted" is exactly the right term. Not necessarily for every pair of LP's and 335's on the planet, but for a great many.

[Tal_175]

Yes, I'm saying that, though I don't know that "gifted" is exactly the right term. Not necessarily for every pair of LP's and 335's on the planet, but for a great many.

Fair enough. You are saying that there is absolutely no discernible (by mere humans) difference in sound between 16 inch semi-hollow construction and solid body construction. That has not been my experience. Let's agree to disagree then.

[John A.]

Fair enough. You are saying that there is absolutely no discernible (by mere humans) difference in sound between 16 inch semi-hollow construction and solid body construction. That has not been my experience. Let's agree to disagree then.

No, I'm saying that there's enough overlap between the two sounds (especially on recordings), that without other cues people can't reliably tell say is which. As I said a couple of posts ago, I think (backed by considerable real world experience with the phenomenon) that people can say "those two sound a little different", but can't reliably say "A is LP; B is a 335" on recordings.

[Tal_175]

No, I'm saying that there's enough overlap between the two sounds (especially on recordings), that without other cues people can't reliably tell say is which. As I said a couple of posts ago, I think (backed by considerable real world experience with the phenomenon) that people can say "those two sound a little different", but can't reliably say "A is LP; B is a 335" on recordings.

As I said I'm not talking about recordings. Most of us aren't recording artists and can't care less about how our guitars would sound in a commercially produced album. I was talking about the scenarios as described in the post 56 which represents live settings.

If you believe the differences wouldn't be discernible in that scenario (post 56) except by a rare person, then for all intents and purposes there isn't a discernible difference (by everybody else), right? Note "discernible" is the key word. The construction either results in a discernible result in that situation or it doesn't.

[bluejaybill]

Feedback from an archtop is generally not extremely high pitched. It's generally at the pitch of an open string, or a fretted string if it's being played. It can be a harmonic of one or more strings. It depends very much on the top, and its vibration frequencies, certainly influenced by the resonant frequencies of the air in the body. It's a complicated system, but easy to excite. If it weren't easy to excite the top, there wouldn't be much volume. The really high pitched squeals are generally from solid-bodies. At least that's been my experience.

Yes, he might be speaking of microphonic noise from an unspotted pickup or one with loose parts.

[John A.]

As I said I'm not talking about recordings. Most of us aren't recording artists and can't care less about how our guitars would sound in a commercially produced album. I was talking about the scenarios as described in the post 56 which represents live settings.

If you believe the differences wouldn't be discernible in that scenario (post 56) except by a rare person, then for all intents and purposes there isn't a discernible difference (by everybody else), right? Note "discernible" is the key word. The construction either results in a discernible result in that situation or it doesn't.

In live settings you can see the guitars, which is maybe a bit of hint as to which one is being played…

The only way you can test discernment is via some sort blind test, which pretty much requires recording (gigging behind a screen is not generally a thing). Home recording is fine for this purpose, though. I’ve done a lot of that. I have semi (not a 335). A good friend of mine with whom I’ve done a lot of recording and playing has LP and a 335. Between the two of us, we have dozens of tracks with these guitars. If I played a series of these to you blind, I doubt you could tell me which guitar is which.

[Tal_175]

In live settings you can see the guitars, which is maybe a bit of hint as to which one is being played…

The only way you can test discernment is via some sort blind test, which pretty much requires recording (gigging behind a screen is not generally a thing).

Post #56 described a live setting that addressed the issue I think. Sorry I'm finding your position a bit wishy-washy on this subject.

Based on the last few posts you seem to be on the one hand, believe that in the setting described in post #56 (in the same room with eyes blindfolded) it'd be pretty much impossible to discern semi-hollow construction from solid body (specifically ES 335 and LP) unless one is exceptionally good at it. (Post #59)

Yet on the other hand you're also disagreeing that these construction types not being discernible by mere humans in response to my post #60??

Let me try to clarify, do you believe that there are any circumstances in which ES 335 and LP can be aurally distinguished without seeing by an average experienced guitarist provided that the guitars in question aren't outlier instances of their types?

[dconeill]

... pointless repetition, removed ...

[John A.]

Post #56 described a live setting that addressed the issue I think. Sorry I'm finding your position a bit wishy-washy on this subject.

Based on the last few posts you seem to be on the one hand, believe that in the setting described in post #56 (in the same room with eyes blindfolded) it'd be pretty much impossible to discern semi-hollow construction from solid body (specifically ES 335 and LP) unless one is exceptionally good at it. (Post #59)

Yet on the other hand you're also disagreeing that these construction types not being discernible by mere humans in response to my post #60??

Let me try to clarify, do you believe that there are any circumstances in which ES 335 and LP can be aurally distinguished without seeing by an average experienced guitarist provided that the guitars in question aren't outlier instances of their types?

Sorry, missed the blindfold detail. Kinky. I think I’ve been pretty consistent. I’m saying that under blind conditions anyone can hear that the two are different, but I’m skeptical that the rate of guessing which is which would be better than chance. Maybe there are conditions that would raise the rate of correct identification. We’d have to run the experiment to see.

[NSJ]

I’ll just add: I put a Lollar CC (in a HB route) in my ES-339, and it instantly became a GREAT jazz box. Total mismatch with bridge pup, but who cares?

Since then, I got rid of the frets on the ES-339 and put in a stainless steel fingerboard and it then morphed into a “sarode guitar”.

[Litterick]

The only way you can test discernment is via some sort blind test, which pretty much requires recording (gigging behind a screen is not generally a thing).

You haven't seen my band.

[Christian Miller]

You haven't seen my band.

and he won’t by the sounds of it

actually I can totally imagine some young jazz players going that way. ‘Yeah we just find the audience distracts us’