Comparison of tones from 339 vs 335 body sizes

[Greco]

I have an EPI 339 Pro and a Casino Coupe. Been jonesing for a 335-sized Inspired by Gibson version, but shop testing hasn't convinced me. Somehow, the larger body tends to be more nasal. I've had a Yamaha SA-2200 and a couple of semi-hollow Ibanezes in the past. Heck, they all work! Playing electric, you have a 3-way switch and up to 7 knobs to fiddle with. I'm perfectly happy with the smaller 339 body size (and weight), although not uncomfortable with my 17" archtops either.

Thanks! This was very helpful as it is precisely my situation.

Any other comparative descriptors apart from the "larger body tends to be more nasal"? Just curious.

[Laurence Finston]

The strings, pickup, and guitar are all coupled together. [...]

Thanks, that makes sense. It never occurred to me and if it had, I would have thought that the effect would be very small in comparison to that of the sound from the amp being picked up by the pickups. Although now that I think about it, I don't know if that idea would even make sense, since the pickups aren't microphones. Is it ultimately just the vibration of the strings, affected by all the factors you mentioned?

[st.bede]

IDK if it just me, but I always find 335 hard to play. I do not have the same feeling from 339s or even a full sized hollowbody… the size of Ibanez, 16 I think. I think at 17 I feel really uncomfortable.

There seems to be something about the angle of a 335, that makes it seem impossible for me to do the Larry Carlton thing, which is the first thing I try to do when I pick up a 335.. out of respect.

[Tal_175]

I have an EPI 339 Pro and a Casino Coupe. Been jonesing for a 335-sized Inspired by Gibson version, but shop testing hasn't convinced me. Somehow, the larger body tends to be more nasal.

I agree, I find ES 335's to be more compressed and nasal sounding than 339's (and most other guitars). But 335's do sound more airy. I owned an Epiphone 335 and borrowed a Gibson ES 335 for a couple of weeks once. 335's sound like no other guitar. ES 339's are probably closer to ES Les Pauls in tone. I only tried them in stores.

[Greco]

I agree, I find ES 335's to be more compressed and nasal sounding than 339's (and most other guitars). But 335's do sound more airy.

Thanks! These are the types of descriptors/comparisons I was wondering about.

[Vihar]

I agree, I find ES 335's to be more compressed and nasal sounding than 339's (and most other guitars). But 335's do sound more airy.

I doubt you could tell them apart in a blind test. Not from a Les Paul or an SG either, for that matter.

[Greco]

I doubt you could tell them apart in a blind test. Not from a Les Paul or an SG either, for that matter.

WOW! This is very interesting and surprising!

I expected/assumed that the differences between an SG, LP and 339/335 would be somewhat easily discerned, especially when playing clean with no effects and at low volumes.

[Alter]

I have both models, and gig with both. I like them both a lot.

The notes of a 335, when played in high volume, really bloom, and come very close to that of a hollow body. You don't have the knock of a full hollow, but still you have a very complicated attack and a lot of wood in the sound.

The 339 is thinner. It still has a bit of the knock of a semi, but has a simpler note and attack, closer to a solid body.

The best description of the 339 is that it's a guitar between a 335 and a Les Paul.

Another plus for the 335 is its musical history, you pick it up and you instantly have the sound of specific music genres. The 339 is a fine sounding instrument, but lacks that history and sound character (which a Les Paul also has).

What I like about the 339 is the smaller shape which I find very practical, and the fact that it's between jazz guitars and solid body guitars, so it can do both worlds. It can do jazz rock better ( meaning more towards rock) than a 335, and jazz better than solid bodies.

[Tal_175]

Thanks! These are the types of descriptors/comparisons I was wondering about.

You're welcome. The bigger body of ES 335 make the low notes a little looser to my ears.

[Tal_175]

I expected/assumed that the differences between an SG, LP and 339/335 would be somewhat easily discerned,

Yes they are to most experienced guitarists.

[Greco]

I have both models, and gig with both. I like them both a lot.

The notes of a 335, when played in high volume, really bloom, and come very close to that of a hollow body. You don't have the knock of a full hollow, but still you have a very complicated attack and a lot of wood in the sound.

The 339 is thinner. It still has a bit of the knock of a semi, but has a simpler note and attack, closer to a solid body.

The best description of the 339 is that it's a guitar between a 335 and a Les Paul.

Another plus for the 335 is its musical history, you pick it up and you instantly have the sound of specific music genres. The 339 is a fine sounding instrument, but lacks that history and sound character (which a Les Paul also has).

What I like about the 339 is the smaller shape which I find very practical, and the fact that it's between jazz guitars and solid body guitars, so it can do both worlds. It can do jazz rock better ( meaning more towards rock) than a 335, and jazz better than solid bodies.

VERY HELPFUL! Thanks.

I don't gig and very seldom play at higher volumes so I would totally miss out on the "bloom" aspect of the 335. What a shame.

[Alter]

To me the basic difference between an Sg and a Les Paul is the top of the Les Paul. It compresses the sound and makes the guitar more adapt to high volume distorted sounds.

Since I mostly play these types of guitars cleanish or with only a bit of drive/distortion, I much prefer the Sg to the Les Paul.

.. Basically the final conclusion always is you got to have one of each!

[Greco]

.. Basically the final conclusion always is you got to have one of each!

This advice could cost me a small fortune!
I now apparently need an SG, LP and a 335!

[John A.]

Yes they are to most experienced guitarists.

Clean neck pickup maybe (especially an SG). But I doubt anyone can reliably distinguish bridge pickup tones of any of those from recordings, especially if there’s any overdrive.

[bluejaybill]

Yes they are to most experienced guitarists.

I have always thought, all other things being the same, which they never are, 335's have a more midrangey character, and LP's have a bit more highs and lows.

Both sustain well, but LP's sustain a bit more.

I've also felt that some 335's sound more like a jazz guitar, and some sound more like an LP. I have heard other more expert 335 folks say the same. But I have no scientific evidence to back that up. You're just going to have to take my word for it. YMMV, of course.

Someone said they find 335's hard to play, I always thought they were easier to play, at least sitting down, that LP's. But I had a nice 1960 ES345 as my main guitar for many years, so maybe I was just used to it. Also, I think that 335's show more difference between vintage and modern than some other guitars, and that they can be hit or mess, you have to dig a bit for a great one. But I suppose that's true of a lot of guitars.

[Tal_175]

Clean neck pickup maybe (especially an SG). But I doubt anyone can reliably distinguish bridge pickup tones of any of those from recordings, especially if there’s any overdrive.

Yeah, overdrive can color tone to an extend that individual nuances can be lost. The guitar tones in produced recordings can also be highly processed, so yeah that can make tonal factors less relevant.

But if one made five unprocessed recordings where four of them were done with a neck pickup, clean Les Paul , one of them with a clean, neck pickup ES 335(each one minute long), it wouldn't be hard to pickout the ES 335 unless the player has zero dynamics in their playing.

[Tal_175]

I have always thought, all other things being the same, which they never are, 335's have a more midrangey character, and LP's have a bit more highs and lows.

I agree. Also even the bigger difference I think is in the attack. ES 335's do have a bit of an hollowbody-ish attack.

[Vihar]

WOW! This is very interesting and surprising!

I expected/assumed that the differences between an SG, LP and 339/335 would be somewhat easily discerned, especially when playing clean with no effects and at low volumes.

Only to people who listen with their eyes (or their wallets). This forum is of course full of snobs like that, but the truth is not what they believe.

[sgosnell]

Thanks, that makes sense. It never occurred to me and if it had, I would have thought that the effect would be very small in comparison to that of the sound from the amp being picked up by the pickups. Although now that I think about it, I don't know if that idea would even make sense, since the pickups aren't microphones. Is it ultimately just the vibration of the strings, affected by all the factors you mentioned?

It's the vibration of the top more than the vibration of the strings. A feedback loop happens when the top is excited, and begins vibrating, which vibrates the strings, which then sends voltage to the amp, which makes more sound of the same pitch(es), which excites the top more, which excites the strings more, which increases the howl from the amp, which... to the point of very loud feedback. The top can be excited by the strings, or just by other sound waves. Other instruments, especially a bass, but including horns and any other noise source, can cause the top to start vibrating, and if this isn't dampened, it can go into feedback. The top can vibrate without any strings even being on the instrument, but of course without strings there is no signal to an amp, so no feedback. This should not be news to anyone, it has been a problem for as long as amplified guitars have been in existence. The real reason solid-body guitars even exist is to minimize feedback. Semis exist to give the familiar body shape. There is really no reason for an electric guitar to even have a body other than ergonomics. It is possible to get into feedback even with a solid body guitar, witness Jimi Hendrix et al, who made it a part of their stage sound. But it's not all that easy to do unless the amp is turned up very loud. With a carved top acoustic archtop, it's very easy to get into feedback even if the amp isn't turned up very loud. Laminate archtops exist to tame the feedback to some extent while still giving a similar sound and look the same, and looks are important in the guitar world.

[Laurence Finston]

Thank you very much for the clear explanation. What causes the extreme high pitch? Is it the upper partials of the vibrating system or does it have some other cause?

[sgosnell]

Feedback from an archtop is generally not extremely high pitched. It's generally at the pitch of an open string, or a fretted string if it's being played. It can be a harmonic of one or more strings. It depends very much on the top, and its vibration frequencies, certainly influenced by the resonant frequencies of the air in the body. It's a complicated system, but easy to excite. If it weren't easy to excite the top, there wouldn't be much volume. The really high pitched squeals are generally from solid-bodies. At least that's been my experience.

[John A.]

I doubt you could tell them apart in a blind test. Not from a Les Paul or an SG either, for that matter.

I’d separate SG from the others due to the neck pickup placement. On most them it’s about an inch further back toward the bridge, which results in a thinner sound, as with 24-fret guitars.

[John A.]

Yeah, overdrive can color tone to an extend that individual nuances can be lost. The guitar tones in produced recordings can also be highly processed, so yeah that can make tonal factors less relevant.

But if one made five unprocessed recordings where four of them were done with a neck pickup, clean Les Paul , one of them with a clean, neck pickup ES 335(each one minute long), it wouldn't be hard to pickout the ES 335 unless the player has zero dynamics in their playing.

If you ask people listening to that test whether it’s one guitar at two different settings or two separate guitars I doubt that people would get it right at a rate greater than chance. Similarly, if you play one of those recordings and ask “LP or 335” set to sound as similar as possible I don’t think people can reliably guess right.

Tangentially, I have a hollow body (flats 12s) and a semi hollow body (rounds 19s). I have recordings where I can’t immediately tell which is which. Eventually, yes, but I have to really listen to the nuances. And these are recordings I made myself relatively recently. A LP and a 335 are way more similar than this.

[Laurence Finston]

Feedback from an archtop is generally not extremely high pitched. [...] The really high pitched squeals are generally from solid-bodies. At least that's been my experience.

Thanks. I never knew there was any difference.

I appreciate both of you taking the time to answer my beginner's questions.

[Peter C]

To the OP: everything you need to know is in Alter's post, especially regarding the volume at which one is playing. At bedroom levels, it probably doesn't matter too much so buy the one you feel comfortable with and get on with playing. I hope it works out for you.