Ho Ho Hollowbody

[Little Jay]

(Deleted)

I was too quick… I suggested to experiment with pickup heights/polepieces, but you already did.

[Vihar]

Well I have my doubts about using the LaBella 11-50's after some volume testing today through the Twin set to 10. This guitar has massive amounts of bass with the current roundwound set which I"m guessing is somewhere between a 46 and a 50 for the low E. Speaker blowing bass levels. I think I need a low 40's set so maybe the LaBella 10-39"s would be a better choice? It seems like an archtop, or at least this archtop, has larger amounts of bass than a thinline guitar. It's my first rodeo so I'm green.

Is it too much even if you turn the bass lower on the amp, to even 2 or 1?

[DawgBone]

Is it too much even if you turn the bass lower on the amp, to even 2 or 1?

Here are my stock settings for a typical loud gig:

Volume 10, Treble 10, Middle 1, Bass 1. Bright switch ON though it has minimal effect above about 6 on the volume dial.

So the bass is at the lowest setting, 1. I know it might seem strange but this is actually quite an effective EQ for a cranked Twin and humbucker guitar. The guitar's volume rarely goes past 7 or 8 or it becomes to much gain for my tastes. With the neck humbucker you still get enough treble to cut through the band mix without being an icepick and for the bridge you roll off the tone for nasal both pickups on or a honking bridge pickup. There is still plenty of midrange without actually dialing it in.

So those were the settings where the low strings were generating too much bass. and that was after dropping the pickup on the bass side. This amp has 100 watt Celestions I could hear the strain they were under, like I had a bass plugged into it, so I think a lighter gauge set might be a better idea. When I played a strat and a Marshall with a greenback loaded cab I also would blow speakers and my guess was it was the heavier gauges (49) I was using at the time causing excessive movement and coil failure.

[Vihar]

Here are my stock settings for a typical loud gig:

Volume 10, Treble 10, Middle 1, Bass 1. Bright switch ON though it has minimal effect above about 6 on the volume dial.

So the bass is at the lowest setting, 1. I know it might seem strange but this is actually quite an effective EQ for a cranked Twin and humbucker guitar. The guitar's volume rarely goes past 7 or 8 or it becomes to much gain for my tastes. With the neck humbucker you still get enough treble to cut through the band mix without being an icepick and for the bridge you roll off the tone for nasal both pickups on or a honking bridge pickup. There is still plenty of midrange without actually dialing it in.

So those were the settings where the low strings were generating too much bass. and that was after dropping the pickup on the bass side. This amp has 100 watt Celestions I could hear the strain they were under, like I had a bass plugged into it, so I think a lighter gauge set might be a better idea. When I played a strat and a Marshall with a greenback loaded cab I also would blow speakers and my guess was it was the heavier gauges (49) I was using at the time causing excessive movement and coil failure.

I see. It's the nature of the beast then. All those Fenders are bass heavy from about the later tweed era on, especially with volume up high. An EQ pedal or something that cuts lows like most ODs could solve it, but I guess going to thinner strings is the cheapest solution, especially if you're already used to them.

[DawgBone]

I see. It's the nature of the beast then. All those Fenders are bass heavy from about the later tweed era on, especially with volume up high. An EQ pedal or something that cuts lows like most ODs could solve it, but I guess going to thinner strings is the cheapest solution, especially if you're already used to them.

Those are good ideas. My current OD I bought to avoid the bass cut that so many drives seem to have built in internally though I could dial some of it out with what I have. I will give that a shot. Many times I just gig straight into the amp. This guitar is more as a secondary instead of a main instrument so some of the tones used will be cleaner tone and lower volume type material. I just wanted to see how it compared to my main guitar at gig/amp settings so I've been playing around with pickup settings and the like. I will get some thinner strings on there soon and give it another try. I have a new years gig this weekend but the stage is too dang small to bring a second guitar and have it easily accessible on a stand without some fool plow boy stomping his foot through it. I do get to play loud there though so there is that, lol.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

What you're descibing doesn't sound like you're playing jazz with this. If you're really playing a 2 1/2" thick full hollow archtop through a Twin with volume and treble set to 10, please tell me the guitar's volume pots are on 1. I've never come anywhere close to full volume on any amp I've ever used on any gig. My main amp for years was an original hunree Boogie combo with an EVM in it and a Thiele EVM extension cab. I've played huge outdoor blues festivals (e.g. North Atlantic and Hudson River Park), big auditoriums with 17 piece bands, and major clubs with SPLs over 115 dB - and I've never come close to wide open throttle even when playing without sound reinforcement. What kind of music are you playing?

Your new Guild is a 2 1/2" fully hollow achtop with a 24 3/4" scale. String tension will be lower at any pitch than it would be with the same tuning on a guitar with a 25 1/2" scale, which is the common scale length on most of the high end archtops we all know love (and on Strats, Teles, etc). It will have a bigger bottom than any thinline semi-hollow, regardless of string gauge - semi-hollow guitars have more internal wood between top and back. The only inherent feedback-reducing elements yours has are a sound block under the bridge and a laminated top. I'd be very surprised if dropping a few thou on each string will make any difference at all at your volume settings. I'm truly amazed that you can get anything other than feedback out of it through a wide open Twin unless you're playing in an open field.

If you have some secret ways of reducing booming bass and feedback, please share them with us. To control feedback playing with my jazz trio in a small club using a CS PR or a Vibrolux, I have to palm mute my gigging archtops (16" bodies, one with solid top on a 2 1/2" thick body, and one laminated box that's 2 3/4" thick).

[DawgBone]

What you're descibing doesn't sound like you're playing jazz with this. If you're really playing a 2 1/2" thick full hollow archtop through a Twin with volume and treble set to 10, please tell me the guitar's volume pots are on 1. I've never come anywhere close to full volume on any amp I've ever used on any gig. My main amp for years was an original hunree Boogie combo with an EVM in it and a Thiele EVM extension cab. I've played huge outdoor blues festivals (e.g. North Atlantic and Hudson River Park), big auditoriums with 17 piece bands, and major clubs with SPLs over 115 dB - and I've never come close to wide open throttle even when playing without sound reinforcement. What kind of music are you playing?

Your new Guild is a 2 1/2" fully hollow achtop with a 24 3/4" scale. String tension will be lower at any pitch than it would be with the same tuning on a guitar with a 25 1/2" scale, which is the common scale length on most of the high end archtops we all know love (and on Strats, Teles, etc). It will have a bigger bottom than any thinline semi-hollow, regardless of string gauge - semi-hollow guitars have more internal wood between top and back. The only inherent feedback-reducing elements yours has are a sound block under the bridge and a laminated top. I'd be very surprised if dropping a few thou on each string will make any difference at all at your volume settings. I'm truly amazed that you can get anything other than feedback out of it through a wide open Twin unless you're playing in an open field.

If you have some secret ways of reducing booming bass and feedback, please share them with us. To control feedback playing with my jazz trio in a small club using a CS PR or a Vibrolux, I have to palm mute my gigging archtops (16" bodies, one with solid top on a 2 1/2" thick body, and one laminated box that's 2 3/4" thick).

No, I'm not playing jazz with it per my earlier posts. I'm playing rocking' blues (not the same thing as blues-rock).The amp is cranked and the guitar's volume pots are usually operating somewhere between 4 and 8 depending on the song or whether I'm taking a solo etc. I always set the amp to 10 unless it's a small indoor club where I'd hurt people. Yes I was playing loud today about 8 feet from the amp but it wasn't uncontrollable feedback.

Ted Nugent is known for playing a Byrdland through 4 cranked Twin Reverbs and somehow he managed to get something more than uncontrolled feedback. Yes, notes will go into feedback but as you said you can palm mute or ride the volume knob to keep it from going into a full uncontrolled squeal. My gain levels aren't that high so the squealing stuff really doesn't happen. Guys always act surprised about running a Twin cranked. Yes it's loud but I have a loud band. Everyone is on a little amp kick these days and is afraid of offending someone with volume. That's just not how I'm geared to play. He who dares, wins. Most blues bands these days seem to be the bowling shirt mafia types doing wish-i-was t-bone throwback jump blues. Most of them usually have a little weakling behind the drum kit who plays like they are in a library. Volume draws people in off the street. People=money=gigs. Few club owners complain when they make money. I hire drummers who play loudly with a driving rimshot.

As for dropping string gauge not making a difference, I'm just trying to avoid blowing a speaker and a bigger string carries more mass so going to a smaller size reduces the chances of that happening. 10-4 on the archtop having a lot more bass response, I definitely learned that today, I will have to play with it some more to mitigate it.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

No, I'm not playing jazz with it per my earlier posts.

Ted Nugent is known for playing a Byrdland through 4 cranked Twin Reverbs and somehow he managed to get something more than uncontrolled feedback. more to mitigate it.

Sorry, but I didn’t recall seeing anything about your music in earlier posts in this thread. So I just reread them all, and I still don’t.

Nugent got “controlled feedback” - he used careful positioning of himself and his guitar relative to his amps, and his tone was half feedback. It was also so loud that he’s now deaf in one ear and trying to hang onto what’s left in the other one.

We’re learning new things from your experiences. I suspect that most on JGO have no experience with this kind of sound, so it’s interesting.

[DawgBone]

Sorry, but I didn’t recall seeing anything about your music in earlier posts in this thread. So I just reread them all, and I still don’t.

Nugent got “controlled feedback” - he used careful positioning of himself and his guitar relative to his amps, and his tone was half feedback. It was also so loud that he’s now deaf in one ear and trying to hang onto what’s left in the other one.

We’re learning new things from your experiences. I suspect that most on JGO have no experience with this kind of sound, so it’s interesting.

Apologies, I got my threads mixed up about the style of music I play.

Playing with a band very loud and playing quiet are two different skill sets IME.

Nugent used careful positioning....I've heard that he had the stage marked out with tape so he could get the feedback he wanted. So, assume he otherwise wouldn't get his desired feedback without being in the correct spots for a given stage. If you're off axis off the amp and a good distance away feedback is usually pretty minimal. I play some lower volume small stage stuff where the amp is right behind me. It's still fairly loud for the room but not peeling paint and it's way more prone to feedback with a semi-hollow than a larger stage with the amp cranked.

I mostly have hearing loss from chronic ear infections that plagued me in humid weather but I do have some from music related activities. I would blame the snare drum as much as the guitar. I don't really like the medical industry so I guess one day I'll be deaf and mostly blind like every other old guys club card holder. It's kind of inevitable to one degree or another. I don't want hearing aids or glasses or medications or a cane or to sit around talking about my prostate so just bury me. I'm a contrarian like that I guess.

[Vihar]

Do you pin the bridge so it doesn't move with the light strings?

[DawgBone]

Do you pin the bridge so it doesn't move with the light strings?

I've never had a guitar with a movable bridge before so I'm not sure what light gauge and 1/2 step drop tuning might entail. I do know it makes creaking sounds when I bend the strings real good so I'm not sure if it will saw down into the bridge slots after a lot of play time. Is a floating bridge a piece that wears out eventually on an archtop? I tend to be hard on my gear as I buy to use not to collect..

I haven't gotten around to changing the strings yet. I was able to correct my string order as for some reason it didn't process so changed the order for a set of LaBella's 9-39 flats so I guess I will find that out. I will probably swap a couple of the high strings out for 10-12-15 as that set is pretty light on top. I replace high E's before every gig cause they usually break after 3-5 hours of gigging and I don't normally pack a backup guitar at every gig.

[Vihar]

I've never had a guitar with a movable bridge before so I'm not sure what light gauge and 1/2 step drop tuning might entail.

I meant this kind of thing, like what comes stock on some Gretsch guitars now:



I think Ted Nugent's tech just uses thin double sided tape to secure the bridge for light gauge strings.

[DawgBone]

I meant this kind of thing, like what comes stock on some Gretsch guitars now:



I think Ted Nugent's tech just uses thin double sided tape to secure the bridge for light gauge strings.

This bridge is definitely not pinned. It was slightly askew when it arrived, judging by the strings not running parallel exactly to the neck edge so I had to adjust it towards the bass side slightly and now all is well. I'll keep the double sided tape in mind if I have problems down the road. Good suggestion.

[Little Jay]

Unless you do a lot of dive-bombing with a Bigsby, you most likely won’t need to pin your bridge down….

[Vihar]

Unless you do a lot of dive-bombing with a Bigsby, you most likely won’t need to pin your bridge doen….

Are you sure, with .010 - .039 strings?

[Little Jay]

Are you sure, with .010 - .039 strings?

Well I have to be honest, I use .011 or heavier on my archtops so I can’t really tell for sure. But considering the string pressure I have with those strings I can’t imagine .010s will give trouble.

Now things might be different with a non-anchored Bigsby without a pressure bar, especially when the string angle after the bridge is shallower. I don’t own any Bigsby guitars so I can’t tell.

But of course you can always try with a non-pinned bridge first and take measures when you notice it moves too easily.

[One_Note]

For controlling bass I typically use an overdrive pedal that cuts bass, with the gain most of the way down. Most of them have some degree of bass cut. Right now I'm using a Caline High Chief, which is based on the King of Tone.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Unless you do a lot of dive-bombing with a Bigsby, you most likely won’t need to pin your bridge down….

Unless I misread DawgBone's posts, the Guild about which he's asking has a harp tailpiece. I'm pretty sure he said that it's his ES that has a Bigsby. A 10-39 set wouldn't normally cause any problems with bridge motion for most playing. But that's pretty thin on a full depth archtop, and they won't get a tone that most of us on JGO would want. OTOH, it's probably great for blues.

I recall reading that he gets 3 to 5 hours from an E1, which suggests some mighty hard picking if it happens on all his guitars and isn't from a rough spot on hardware. That may be enough to make bridge fixation necessary - he'll have to try it unfixed first and see. I also don't think lighter strings will do much (if anything) to tame feedback, since they're much less tense than heavier strings and will vibrate / resonate more easily than thicker, tenser strings in response to airborne sound..

[DawgBone]

Unless I misread DawgBone's posts, the Guild about which he's asking has a harp tailpiece. I'm pretty sure he said that it's his ES that has a Bigsby. A 10-39 set wouldn't normally cause any problems with bridge motion for most playing. But that's pretty thin on a full depth archtop, and they won't get a tone that most of us on JGO would want. OTOH, it's probably great for blues.

I recall reading that he gets 3 to 5 hours from an E1, which suggests some mighty hard picking if it happens on all his guitars and isn't from a rough spot on hardware. That may be enough to make bridge fixation necessary - he'll have to try it unfixed first and see. I also don't think lighter strings will do much (if anything) to tame feedback, since they're much less tense than heavier strings and will vibrate / resonate more easily than thicker, tenser strings in response to airborne sound..

You read the post correctly. The Guild has the harp tailpiece, my ES has a Bigsby and a tune-o-matic.

I'm not looking to tame feedback with thinner low strings as much as I'm looking to mitigate some of the massive bass response through a cranked amp that the Guild seems to generate. It does turn into feedback though. However, it will likely blow even my 100 watt Celestions at gig volume even without feedback. For those who say a thinner string won't fix speaker blowing I will only say that my experience is a thinner bass string generates less bass and therefore fewer speakers bite the dust.

I would love to run a .13-50 set or thereabout but routine bends, especially full step bends, aren't really feasible with a heavy high E and a wound G string is completely out of the question. Blues is a lot of bending, vibrato, and legato pull off runs whereas most jazz features almost no string bending. I have thin wrists and lack the SRV vice grip hands so I need lighter strings to get the job done. I actually ordered a 9.5 gauge to try in place of 10's for my ES just to make my life a little easier so we will see how that goes.

When I played Fenders I broke many more high E strings. When I switched to a Gibson the string breakage at the bridge went away with regular string changes. I had people tell me there was a burr on the strat saddle but it was happening across the board on a couple different strats, even the strat I equipped with graphtech saddles (mistake) hoping to eliminate the problem. I think the strat tension combined with aggressive bending and 10 gauge high E was too much for the string to handle so I often had 11's on there, which again, was more than my hands can deal with for lots of repeat bending.

The idea is to make the Guild a suitable secondary instrument for gigs without having to adjust EQ or OD pedal settings. After some preliminary testing I think it's quite possible. I prefer to entertain rather than twiddle knobs so I like a nice, straightforward guitar-amp arrangement as much as possible. As soon as the strings show up I will re-string and give it another go. I don't really want to have to pin the bridge. I'm guessing that's a luthier job to have it done right. We'll see I guess.

[Little Jay]

For controlling bass I typically use an overdrive pedal that cuts bass, with the gain most of the way down. Most of them have some degree of bass cut. Right now I'm using a Caline High Chief, which is based on the King of Tone.

A(n) (graphic) EQ-pedal would probably better suited to the task….

[DawgBone]

I put the LaBella 9-39's on but subbed the high E and B for a 10 and a 12 and tuned it up to my usual Eb. I did a few bends and the bridge was sliding back and forth across the guitar like it was on ice!

Ok, just kidding, there were no problems. I think these LaBella's might become my main strings, real nice! The price tag is kind of a rich guy's set so maybe I can find a cheaper deal on them. The set included two G strings, is that normal? They are real slinky but I was digging it. Guitar definitely lost some volume, sounds a little more like a toy by comparison to the thunder of the roundwound fatties the seller put on there. Bass response acoustically was definitely reduced so I think this might work out well, I just need to have my ol' lady gone so I can test it with the Twin set to lethal volume levels.

Thanks to all who chimed in on my first archtop, this thing is just awesome! I do think the pickguard is kinda fugly so I might take it off or find someone to make one without the silly stepped art deco look but that's just cosmetic crap. It's got tone!

[Vihar]

Thanks to all who chimed in on my first archtop, this thing is just awesome! I do think the pickguard is kinda fugly so I might take it off or find someone to make one without the silly stepped art deco look but that's just cosmetic crap. It's got tone!

Glad it worked out for you, man. I was afraid your hard picking was going to move the bridge sideways because of the downtuning and the light gauges, but if it's good, it's good. Happy New Year to you!

[DawgBone]

Glad it worked out for you, man. I was afraid your hard picking was going to move the bridge sideways because of the downtuning and the light gauges, but if it's good, it's good. Happy New Year to you!

Well hopefully it doesn't become a problem but I don't pick near as hard as I used to. Also that was when I played with a flatpick, the thumb pick you can't attack as hard and the fingerpick is an upstroke. Anyhow I won't tell you all about it as you and me are probably the only banjo pick users here so I know you get it. It was a bad habit developed by playing solidbodies unplugged at home all the time and digging in to hard with a flatpick. I have a much lighter touch these days in both hands. Lower action for my left hand and lighter strings, plus a lighter pick attack. Blues does require bending and digging in a little bit on some of the chugging 12 bar rhythms at times I just try to get more amp volume and let it pick up some of the slack.

Thanks Vihar, Lord bless and Happy New Year to you and your family and friends as well from Texas USA!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Wow - I don’t know any blues players who use thumb and finger picks! I’d love to hear how that sounds. Do you have a sample audio or video clip you could share with us?

We’re not all strangers to the blues here. I’m happy to post some of the Philly Blues Kings - I’m the old guy with the LP in them:

The first is an old practice session from about 5 years ago. Ignore the woman on harp - she didn’t make the cut. The guitar is a single pickup (neck) Epi LP 7 string with an EMG and 11-50 Chromes plus an 0.075 7th string, played through a Vox Nighttrain tube head set on triode (5 watts class A) through a Boogie Thiele cab with EVM 12 in it:

The second is a performance at the club in which I’m the house band leader. The guitar is the same LP 7 played through a Vibrolux. Our vocalist was sick that day, so I had to sing. I’m not a singer, and trying just hinders my playing - I don’t like doing it, but the show must go on…

Could we please hear something from you?

[DawgBone]

Wow - I don’t know any blues players who use thumb and finger picks! I’d love to hear how that sounds. Do you have a sample audio or video clip you could share with us?

We’re not all strangers to the blues here. I’m happy to post some of the Philly Blues Kings - I’m the old guy with the LP in them:

The first is an old practice session from about 5 years ago. Ignore the woman on harp - she didn’t make the cut. The guitar is a single pickup (neck) Epi LP 7 string with an EMG and 11-50 Chromes plus an 0.075 7th string, played through a Vox Nighttrain tube head set on triode (5 watts class A) through a Boogie Thiele cab with EVM 12 in it:

The second is a performance at the club in which I’m the house band leader. The guitar is the same LP 7 played through a Vibrolux. Our vocalist was sick that day, so I had to sing. I’m not a singer, and trying just hinders my playing - I don’t like doing it, but the show must go on…

Could we please hear something from you?

Wow you got some smooth licks there man! Great blues tone too, real nice!

My favorite video of my group is probably this one, which is a link to a vid on my fb band page. Edwards ES straight into the Twin on 10. You gotta turn the volume up when you go to the link as it's down all the way until you activate it. The smile at 2:09 was probably the highlight of my year. I have a great bunch of guys I'm working with the past few years. Truly a blessing in these difficult times. I'm real thankful for every gig and rehearsal we get to play music together. Lemme know if the link works, it''s saying I"m temporarily blocked or something....