Fender ToneMaster Princeton!

[wintermoon]

I know next to nothing about modern amps so this is probably not useful to the discussion but I've gigged vintage Fender tube amps exclusively literally forever and only had a tube fail once and it was while practicing at home, a severely microphonic preamp tube. put a new one in no issues after. that being said I only use NOS tubes as they're much more reliable/long lasting than modern tubes.
now after typing all that, watch a tube fail on tonight's gig.....

[omphalopsychos]

You guys wanna know the other funny thing? A PRRI weighs 34 lbs, but a pine cabinet, hand-wired princeton reverb should only weigh about 27 lbs. My vintage 1964 Princeton reverb and headstrong lil king both weigh that much with alnico speakers.

You wanna know another thing? My Tungsten Crema Wheat (20w version of 5e3 deluxe) only weighs 24 lbs and is WAY louder than I could need for any gig.

[John A.]

I don't think we represent a significant part of Fender's target audience, and this thread may be missing Fender's basic strategy. They have a large enough market to be able to sell a lot of amplifiers. They also have a long reputation for quality and an historic lineup of classic amps that were the backbone of the music industry for decades. They can sell multiple models that differ in minor ways because there are enough people who want them all. So the more models they can pump out, the more loyal customers they will either retain or pick up. But they have a lot of competition these days, so they're pushing out everything they think will grab market share from the upstarts.

According to Reverb sales data, Fender has 6 of the top selling 20 amps in the US in 2022. Boss and Orange have 3 each, and Marshall and Yamaha each have 2 on the list:

1. Positive Grid Spark 40
2. Boss Katana-50
3. Yamaha THR10II
4. Orange Micro Dark
5. Yamaha THR30II
6. Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb
7. Fender Rumble 40 V3
8. Orange MT20 Micro Terror
9. Marshall DSL40CR
10. PRS Mark Tremonti MT15
11. Vox AC15C1
12. Fender '65 Reissue Deluxe Reverb
13. Fender Rumble 100
14. Fender Mustang LT25
15. Boss Katana-100 MKII
16. Orange Super Crush 100
17. Marshall Studio Vintage SV20H MKII
18. Fender Blues Junior III
19. Kemper Profiler Head
20. Boss KTN-Mini

They've kinda cornered the market on big combos. And I suspect they're bringing out the TMs and other digital products to lure buyers of those little digital amps on that list to a "real Fender".

Size still matters, whether the preference is for bigger or smaller. Wide body combos are the only consideration for some, and they'll take the bigger of any two amps because they want it. Many prefer the sound of a larger cab and bigger speakers, even though some are listening with their eyes and/or egos. Got big, heavy, tubey Twins if you want 'em. Want a Twin-sized combo with the power but not the weight? Get a TM. Want tubes in a smaller box that'll handle small gigs? Buy a PRRI. Need more power in a smaller box? etc etc etc - Fender's got it. Don't go look at those lesser brands!

Fender's not interested in the Henriksen / DVM guitar amp market because there aren't enough of us to matter to them (although Quilter may be getting their attention). Jazz guitarists benefit from the plethora of amp options available today - but there's a reason you never see an ad for a Fender amp that features a jazz player. So let's be glad for what we have but not lose sight of the fact that they couldn't care less about our segment of the market.

I think I might draw a different conclusion. Reverb is mainly a used market, so the top sellers there represent items people want to get rid of.

[NSJ]

I just got this as my replacement or second amp. I like it a lot because it makes the eighth string sound very clear and balanced in the bass middle and upper registers. Not an easy thing to do. I prefer it to the twin or super deluxe reverb. Which I tried and got rid of. I intend to use it for recording and possibly playing out in small places solo guitar.

obviously, nothing beats the buscarino Chameleon amplification system that he just created in the last year.

The buscarino is hands-down, the best amp. I’ve never seen it discussed here or at least the new one anyway.. you could have one channel for your electric guitar and one channel for your nylon or acoustic guitar.

in any event, I really like the sound of the Princeton as well.

[omphalopsychos]

Nav, how loud is it? Can it handle a loud drummer/ small gig?

[NSJ]

Nav, how loud is it? Can it handle a loud drummer/ small gig?

I think it’s pretty loud for my house. It should be ok in a small venue with a drummer. I’m not the best candidate ask because I really hate loud amplification. My only concern is it’s loud enough to be heard. Right now I have the amp set at three out of 10. That seems to be fine for the house, with a drum or you could increase it. Then you run into the problem of an electric guitar sounds like an electric guitar sounds like an electric guitar. I’d be happy to show it to you at some point, I’m usually in the bay still once a week or once every other week.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Looking at the the top 5, very little or nothing said on this Forum. Any experience on Positive Grid, for example? Is there a parallel universe we're unaware of?

Lots of demos on YouTube. You'll want to download its App onto your phone. One neat feature it is that you choose setting by song: "Wind Cried Mary", etc...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think I might draw a different conclusion. Reverb is mainly a used market, so the top sellers there represent items people want to get rid of.

Reverb is a used gear marketplace for sure, John. But these data are for all sales, which includes a lot of new stuff (often from authorized dealers). Just look at the landing page for the amplifier section to get an idea. And the seller's motivation seeems irrelevant to buyer's wants and needs.

If I'm not mistaken, the Reverb News data are for unit volume, not revenue. As I recall, Fender and Marshall were the top selling amp brands by revenue in 2020 (the last year for which I've seen that level of industry data).

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Nav, how loud is it? Can it handle a loud drummer/ small gig?

We have a Custom Shop PR at the club in which I play regularly, and I use it every week. It's loud enough to hang with the Hammond and a loud drummer (on a rack mounted rig that's far too big and complex for our small stage), if you don't mind a little hair on your tone. We also have a SF Vibrolux, which will get significantly louder and stay clean. But the PR has enough guts for any small to moderate gig I've ever had. My 7th string is full and unrestrained. I will say that the bass is typically Fender-flabby. Both my Toobs and my Blu are a lot tighter and cleaner at the bottom. But the backline is already there so I don't have to carry it, and it sounds fine. If all those amps were at home with me, I'd take the SBUS / TOOB for smaller gigs and the Blu for bigger ones. For big, loud blues gigs without house sound, I use the Toob 10 with my DV Mark Raw Dawg 250 head.

[Doctor Jeff]

They already have made a couple of different "digital Champs". E.g., Champion 20, which includes several different models and is giggable (up to a point), and is really cheap. There's also the Super Champ X2, which I think kind of flunks the test (not enough power, too heavy, but sounds pretty good). Honestly, if the TM PR were 15 lbs and could scale up to the equivalent loudness of, say, Vibrolux Reverb, by real PR would be up for sale right now. But as spec'd the PR does not tempt me. Nor does the TM DR, even though I tried one and thought it sounded great. The Quilter Aviator Cub gets the formula much closer to right IMO (and would be perfect if they could get the weight under 20lbs), as does the Champion 40.

I don’t think Fender still offers the Super Champ X2. It was only 24# and had enough power for a small combo. I have gigged with my SCXD quite a bit.

Seems like for most of us the Deluxe TM would offer the best bang for the buck. The Princeton seems geared toward people with a particular affection for the tube amp, but who want lighter and cheaper and more convenient.

[Woody Sound]

but there's a reason you never see an ad for a Fender amp that features a jazz player.

[Woody Sound]

That said, for us jazzers there's always the amp Fender never made. Size of a princeton (small 1x12) and the power of a vibrolux (40w)... It would make sense to do this in the digital Tone Master series, a small light 1x12 with lots of headroom that could be also used by musicians who play other genres as a pedal platform.

Isn't that similar to how the Boogie got started?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I suspect that most people consider Benson to be a “pop” musician. When he was just a jazzer, he was relatively unknown. Where did that ad run?

[NSJ]

100%. To be fair, GB always had a stereo set up, beset of both worlds. Fender and solid state, usually Polytone.

How many years ago when I was taking lessons, I just missed him. He showed up at my teacher’s house to pick up a Polytone amp he needed for a gig at the symphony center downtown. They had the Fender amp, but they didn’t have the Polytone. So GB drove from downtown all the way to Edgewater to make sure he had the right equipment for the gig.

It’s pretty easy to get a stereo set up, even for us minions. All you need is a. Lehle amp switcher pedal.

[jorgemg1984]

Isn't that similar to how the Boogie got started?

I think Boogie, but maybe Dumble even more. Giving the Fender cleans a more "hi-fi" mid-focused sound (less scooped) and adding actual overdrive to the second channel.

Still, I don't think a Boogie, or a Dumble, equate to that amp - the cleans are too different. I was talking more about Fender cleans, small cab, high headroom. A 1x12 Pro Reverb in a a pricenton cab - plenty of "modders" and Fender custom builders do an amp like that, but Fender never did AFAIK (the Rivera Concert amps are more similar to Boogies and Dumbles than this amp).

This a very good example

Jazz 35 (Princeton Style) – Vintage Sound Amps

[Litterick]

Looking at the the top 5, very little or nothing said on this Forum. Any experience on Positive Grid, for example? Is there a parallel universe we're unaware of?

It is called The Gear Page.

[bluenote61]

That said, for us jazzers there's always the amp Fender never made. Size of a princeton (small 1x12) and the power of a vibrolux (40w)...

You're right. Small 1x12, and 40W clean tube power. Unlike the first Boogies, their intention was more into distorted sounds combined with more power than the PR.
There are some boutique builders on the shore, covering that (small) business of clean, powerful PR sized amps. But very expensive. Too expensive for me. Hence I had to build my own, based on a housing for a PR with 1x12 cutout from the aftermarket.
40W and 15kg with Neodym speaker, 17kg with conventional speaker.

[jorgemg1984]

You're right. Small 1x12, and 40W clean tube power. Unlike the first Boogies, their intention was more into distorted sounds combined with more power than the PR.
There are some boutique builders on the shore, covering that (small) business of clean, powerful PR sized amps. But very expensive. Too expensive for me. Hence I had to build my own, based on a housing for a PR with 1x12 cutout from the aftermarket.
40W and 15kg with Neodym speaker, 17kg with conventional speaker.

Wow, excatly what I meant. Looks great, congrats on your build! I bet it sounds good... The only thing I would've added would be a mid pot, not the useless Fender mid pot, but a modded one - mids on zero scooped, and approaching flat frequency as you turn the mids up.

[bluenote61]

Wow, excatly what I meant. Looks great, congrats on your build! I bet it sounds good... The only thing I would've added would be a mid pot, not the useless Fender mid pot, but a modded one - mids on zero scooped, and approaching flat frequency as you turn the mids up.

Thanks!
Yes, I added a mid pot. The amp has no vibrato unit (Jazzers don't need one, or?), which enabled me to use the leftover 2 pot spaces for a mid pot and a master volume. (The titles on the faceplate are written in German, just a spleen. )

[jorgemg1984]

Thanks!
Yes, I added a mid pot. The amp has no vibrato unit (Jazzers don't need one, or?), which enabled me to use the leftover 2 pot spaces for a mid pot and a master volume. (The titles on the faceplate are written in German, just a spleen. )

Brilliant - it seems like I need to improve my German What speaker are you using?

[bluenote61]

Brilliant - it seems like I need to improve my German What speaker are you using?

Currently I have a Jensen Tornado (Neodym) with 100W installed. This speaker stays longer clean than the other choice, a 50W Weber with ferromagnetic magnet.
IMO, there is not so much difference in sound between both speakers. The Weber has more sparkle in the trebles, but I think this is not so important for archtop players.

[jorgemg1984]

Currently I have a Jensen Tornado (Neodym) with 100W installed. This speaker stays longer clean than the other choice, a 50W Weber with ferromagnetic magnet.
IMO, there is not so much difference in sound between both speakers. The Weber has more sparkle in the trebles, but I think this is not so important for archtop players.

Cool, I have used Tornados before, theyre great speakers!

[alltunes]

I just don't understand the market for this.

It weighs the same as the Tone Master Deluxe but has 12% the power, so it's not as giggable. So is this for home use? Why not use a real Princeton reverb? They cost the same.

Is this just for people who prefer the warmth of digital processing over that harsh, sterile sound of tubes?

If they make a digital champ next, we'll know they've lost their minds.

This recent Champ has digital reverb. I bought one of these and returned it the next day.

https://www.fender.com/en-US/guitar-...279000000.html

[alltunes]

I just don't understand the market for this.

It weighs the same as the Tone Master Deluxe but has 12% the power, so it's not as giggable. So is this for home use? Why not use a real Princeton reverb? They cost the same.

Is this just for people who prefer the warmth of digital processing over that harsh, sterile sound of tubes?

If they make a digital champ next, we'll know they've lost their minds.

I get your point; as a side note this recent Champ has digital reverb. I bought one of these and returned it the next day.

https://www.fender.com/en-US/guitar-...279000000.html

[Alter]

Real Twins, Deluxe and Princetons sound very different from each other, so probably the tonemaster ones sound different too. I think it's the amp name that mostly drives the sales. People want a Princeton, they'll look into a tonemaster princeton, etc..

With a real Princeton (the 65 variety - the 68 is more of a rock/blues amp), you can easily gig it if you change the speaker into something more effecient. I wonder how the tonemaster will be, in terms of clear headroom..