Fender ToneMaster Princeton!

[Tal_175]

Behringer's business model seems to be reverse engineering the technology of premium brands and cheaply manufacturing the same technology at a much lower price point. It's also cheaper to rip off technology than innovate and they can probably tolerate lower margins and aim for higher sales volumes. That's how they can sell identical sounding Tech 21 pedal copies for nearly 1/10th the price.

Tone master Twin and DR came out in 2019, that is 6 years ago. The processors used in them aren't the state of the art today. There are many cheap amps with reasonably solid cabinets and good sounding speakers like champions and Katanas. I am not saying there isn't a value in a high quality product, but it doesn't seem that crazy to me that one could make a cheap knock off tone master amp that can hold its own in a blind test.

[GuyBoden]

TC Electronic | Product | COMBO DELUXE 65' PREAMP

[orri]

Behringer's business model seems to be reverse engineering the technology of premium brands and cheaply manufacturing the same technology at a much lower price point. It's also cheaper to rip off technology than innovate and they can probably tolerate lower margins and aim for higher sales volumes. That's how they can sell identical sounding Tech 21 pedal copies for nearly 1/10th the price.

There are many cheap amps with reasonably solid cabinets and good sounding speakers like champions and Katanas. I am not saying there isn't a value in a high quality product, but it doesn't seem that crazy to me that one could make a cheap knock off tone master amp that can hold its own in a blind test.

That's true. Behringer can reduce manufacturing costs by using high volume manufacturing process instead of the lower volume manufacturing processes of many premium products.
They can also negotiate better prices from their suppliers by ordering thousands of units of component that is used in multiple products,. etc. and etc.

But Fender is also huge, and they can also use similar cheaper high volume manufacturing processes, order large quantities etc.

I don't see where Behringer has access to a significant cost cutting opportunity that Fender doesn't have? (sure they might have something that gets it down 10-20% or something).

It wouldn't make sense for Fender to go through the effort of modeling the same amps multiple times in order to build cheaper and more expensive digital versions.

The Mustang and Champion series are much older, so it might have made sense to partially start from scratch for the Tone Master series to be able to take advantage of the latest advancements in modelling technology.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think there might be a bit of an understanding gap here regarding the complexity. This is not as straightforward as you make it sound.
most likely replace the entire board with one supplied from Fender.

I appreciate the explanation. I didn't know which parts would contain proprietary software.

[Tal_175]

I don't see where Behringer has access to a significant cost cutting opportunity that Fender doesn't have? (sure they might have something that gets it down 10-20% or something).

Fender and Behringer have very different pricing policies. I don't think Fender determines their prices in a way that closely tracks their costs. Factors like legacy, prestige and brand loyalty allows them margins that are not available to brands like Behringer. Fender also invests in R&D. Another area where Behringer cut costs is the build quality in their pedals (plastic casings vs aluminum etc). Their priority seems to be getting the tone right. A Behringer knock off tone master wouldn't have solid pine cabinet but they will use MDF instead. They wouldn't come with Jensen or neo creamback speakers but they would be custom commissioned speakers (most people don't seem to like the neo speakers that are in Tonemasters anyway). These are similar cost cutting measures used in cheaper modelling amps like Katana. I don't know if most are sensitive to the difference in pine cabinet vs MDF other than small weight savings. It doesn't seem impossible to me that they could get very close to tonemasters at a much lower price point like they do with other products. Anyway, my comment was tongue in cheek because the discussion was about reverse engineering tonemasters. I am not that into Behringer's business model.

[Gitterbug]

Behringer manufactures in China. So do many others, including Quilter. DV Mark sources from Indonesia but seems to be on its way out. The value percentage of Chinese-made components in everything on the market must be high. I suspect Ice Power does not manufacture in Denmark either. So if Trump's tariffs strike through, we will see product shortages and price hikes in the US. Europe may be blessed from a redirection of Chinese marketing effort.

[jim777]

Behringer's business model seems to be reverse engineering the technology of premium brands and cheaply manufacturing the same technology at a much lower price point. It's also cheaper to rip off technology than innovate and they can probably tolerate lower margins and aim for higher sales volumes. That's how they can sell identical sounding Tech 21 pedal copies for nearly 1/10th the price.

A lot of the things they sell are also decades past last manufacture and the only way most people could ever hope to own that type of technology.

An ARP 2600 clone, less than $500 - Behringer | Product | 2600 BLUE MARVIN

An Oberheim OBXa (but with 16 voices) under $1300 - Behringer | Product | UB-Xa

A Prophet 5 for under $200 - Behringer | Product | CRAVE

A (4 voice!) Minimoog under $650 - Behringer | Product | POLY D

I think Behringer is a great asset to the community of musicians. Old Oberheims and ARPs are not going to go down in price, and younger people will be able to explore that tech.

[Spook410]

Really looking forward to next gen stuff. Though maybe the next step is a flow down. Still, now I want CNN's and white box and.. and.. Appreciate the insights from those that are tracking the tech and take the time to give the rest of us at least a hint at what is going on.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Never said that the current generation does.

if I may steal from the great sage Dylan, it ain’t me Babe. I don’t think I said that because I don’t know if it’s true. I’ve extolled the sonic virtues of the hybrid amps I’ve heard and used with “tiny tube” front ends (like my EG250). But I have no idea about current use (no pun intended) in other industries.