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Well, now that we know the story, it’s not so bad. My original beef was that it clearly wasn’t done by the custom shop and the description was lacking.
for amateur work it’s pretty good, pickguards can be replaced. I’m not sure how off center the pickup really is mounted, that could be camera perpective.
but knowing what it is, it’s worth something… but the price should be lower, like I said earlier resale will be tough.
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11-11-2022 12:19 AM
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Well I'll be. But $2500? When can I pick it up?
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Somebody hacked at the pickguard, put holes in the top, left the pickup gaping and may have cut some braces to get thing to fit. The brace thing is over my head, but I still get the idea that somebody without a luthier's skills did surgery on this guitar. You could put the HB back, get a new pickguard and fill the holes -- and, if the braces weren't damaged, the guitar might look and play pretty well. But, all that has to be reflected in the price.
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It’s a real shame that poor Guitar got whacked up like that by some amateur
This is how it is supposed to look
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So now I’m consumed by a question (which is half rhetorical and half practical) that’s nagged at me since I got the bug to “move up” from a 175D to an L-5, which I did in 1970 or ‘71, when I bought a new L-5CN and put a Rhythm Chief on it because I liked both acoustic and electric tone much better than that of a CES. Along with a widespread belief (which I don’t share) that amplified tone is independent of structural factors like solid vs lam and spruce vs hog, WoodySound’s observation in this thread that very few play a CES acoustically has me once again wondering how much (if at all) chopping holes in a fine carved spruce top and hanging chunks of metal on it affect both acoustic and electric tone. If it doesn’t matter at all, why “waste” all those fine tops when more basic ones would sound as good?
It’s been so long since I played a twin P/U L-5 or S400 CES (mine or someone else’s) that I don’t even remember what they sounded like. To be honest, I was always so thrilled to be playing instruments about which I dreamed as a kid that I probably thought they sounded better than they did just because I was in love. But this thread really has me thinking.
Many of you have and play the best Gibson electric archtops. How do they sound acoustically? If a pair of humbuckers set into the top doesn’t affect acoustic tone and they sound great unamplified, I can understand why they’re so loved by so many. But if as WS says, no one plays a CES acoustically and it’s because they don’t sound as good as the same guitars with intact tops and floaters, why spend so much for a guitar you’ll never play unamplified when you can get the same amplified tone for thousands less? I’m ignoring the affect of bracing differences and assuming for this discussion that bracing is optimized for each (and ignoring personal preference of bracing design).
And bringing it back to this thread, how much might the alterations to this WesMo have affected its acoustic sound? From my limited experience with set single pickups in carved tops, I don’t think they affect the acoustic sound very much. I’ve always thought this was because they’re away from the main vibrating area of the top. But an original design CC is bolted right into that area, and the mass of the pickup assembly is cantilevered off those 3 screws, so it loads the top at an angle and has to affect the vibration patterns of the top more than a simple set neck HB does.
If none of what was done to this L-5 affects tone, the engineer who assaulted this guitar simply recreated Lester’s “log” at the cost of a WesMo. But I’ll be very disappointed if y’all respond that no L-5CES sounds great acoustically and that an old school CC bolted to a fine carved top has no effect on acoustic tone. Feed me, Seymour!
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The guitar in this picture is at 1939 Gibson L5 P left the factory with no electronics
after the war in the late 40s, the original owner send it to the factory and have them installed the cobalt steel Charlie question and what was at the time the new P90 pick up that gibson was making that was done at the factory
I can tell you that DeChown said that Charlie Christian a P90 make together is exquisite
But sadly, I also report that I own a 1940 L5, non-cutaway and that things got so much acoustic tones and moves so much air compared to that L5 P with those pick ups mounted in there. My L5P is not an acoustic guitar like the non-cutaway is.
Big
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Carved and lams definitely sound different through an amp. My carved Eastman and lam Sadowsky, both with single built in buckers, sound very different amplified.
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I think the missing string is due to the fact that the original owner, who apparently did the modifications, passed away some years ago, and now his wife, who knows nothing about guitars or strings, needs to sell the guitar. I find it difficult to fault her all that much. My wife would probably know even less. A missing string is easily replaced, as the rest probably need to be. I would never judge a guitar by decades-old strings on it. The mods aren't at the level of a top-rank professional luthier, but they seem adequate for playing. Parallax can make lots of things look strange and off-center, so I can't say much about that, either. I think it's an authentic, honest sale, just priced too high, as all vintage (read old and used) Gibsons are. I wish the widow good luck with the sale, but I can't spend the money she needs.
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I agree. My carved Eastman and my lam Ibanez have distinctly different amplified tonal characters through every amp I’ve owned or used, and no knob twisting on amps or application of plugins to recordings will make them sound the same. And, of course, the Eastman sounds much better acoustically. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
But my question is about the acoustic sound of fine archtops with set pickups. Does setting a single neck pickup into a well made carved archtop change the acoustic sound of the instrument? What about a pair of them, or an original design CC? Does that CC installed in the Franken5 that spawned this thread have any effect on the acoustic sound of the guitar, compared to the HB from its presumed original status as a single p’up WesMo?
I honestly don’t know if an L-5CES has great acoustic tone. I haven’t played one in years, and I was not exactly objective about it when I did because I was too in awe of them to pay much objective attention to them. It was your comment that you’ve never seen a CES played acoustically that brought the issue to a head in my head.
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I respectfully disagree. The seller’s response to an inquiry is posted earlier in this thread and says “I am selling this guitar for a client . It belonged to his dad who has passed away”. The timing of that demise is unstated. The pics are as good as any on Reverb, and the ad appears to have been prepared by someone who’s quite familiar with both guitars and the process of selling them. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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My Super 400CES has a really great acoustic tone. What it doesn’t have is volume. The tone of it is very reminiscent to some of my favorite acoustic archtops. It could never be used unplugged to play for anyone else, but could be used that way for practice.
I’m not sure the isolated electric sound of a carved top sounds significantly different compared to a laminate top guitar that’s the same in every other way, but I believe the experience is definitely different for the player. If I record the isolated sound of my Super 400CES vs the ex-Herb Ellis ES-175 I think they sound almost the same. They share having patent number pickups and I set the pickup and pole heights on the 400 to match Herb’s. They differ in construction, size, and number of pickups (only one in Herb’s). When I play them they feel and resonate very differently and have a different acoustic tone.
So, my take is that carved vs laminate definitely makes a difference to the player, but I don’t think that factor makes much difference to the listener. I think the pickups, amp, speakers, strings, room, etc. are among many things that are probably more significant to the listener. I don’t believe the same to be true for hollow vs solid body guitars though, but I still think the differences for an isolated electric sound can be very subtle.
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I've never done a relevant comparison, but that won't stop me from offering a few thoughts.
The pristine carved top presumably would vibrate more freely than a laminate, or a carved top in which pickups have been installed.
And, that could translate to greater volume and maybe better tone, although tone is always a matter of taste.
But, it would also contribute to a greater propensity for feedback. On the bandstand, if not in the laboratory, that changes how you can use the guitar. So, again presumably, the carved top with floater is going to lead to lower volume, a certain range amp placement and the possibility that, even short of feedback, there's going to be some unwanted amplification of lower frequencies.
I'm aware that some players seem to manage this issue effectively. I could not, and therefore stopped playing hollow guitars.
Still, the best sounds for comping I've heard from archtops were from a Fender D'Aquisto (apparently a set pickup) and a Guild Artist Award, which seems to have a floater.
And, I wouldn't want to bet that I could tell the difference in a blindfold test between set or floater, carved or laminate.
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A friend of mine has some nice vintage acoustic archtops. I'd call him and ask what he's doing and he'd say 'I'm practicing'. I'd say w/what and he'd reply, that '53 ES-350 you found for me. I'd say through what amp and he'd say 'no amp' I'd reply why are you playing a lam guitar w/ no amp when you have several superb acoustics. He would say 'I don't know'
Well as the years went by I found myself doing the same thing, practicing w/ electric guitars w/ no amp even though I have some stellar vintage acoustic archtops. Almost all of my vintage electric archies have great acoustic sound [a big reason I bought them] which translates through an amp as well. I don't think it's necessarily laziness but more often than not these days I'll practice w/ one of my 60s L-5's or Super 400CES guitars w/no amp. They're plenty loud and round enough to play in a small acoustic band setting but not as ideal as a strictly acoustic guitar.
These guitars w/ pickups mounted have heavier bracing so not really meant to be played sans amp but I can get more than enough volume for couch playing. I don't play my acoustic archtops much anymore and the electrics kind of keep my playing style similar to what I use on a gig, there's no compensating for things like a higher action that some acoustics require.
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I think archtops set up for acoustic playing are harder to play than those set up for electric. A proper acoustic needs higher action than an electric, because the strings will almost certainly be plucked harder than an electric will be. Carved top acoustics can certainly be set up with low action, but the acoustic tone and volume will suffer. This difference in action can influence which guitar the owner might pick up.
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A teacher of mine had a nice wine red Super400CES, and I had an old L50 at the time. Our lessons were in a small room without amps. Acoustically the S400 couldn't hold a candle to the little L50. I was younger, so I naively asked him why his big fancy guitar didn't sound as good or loud as mine. Wrong thing to do! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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And yet not wrong... Originally Posted by Woody Sound
You've just entered the realm of my burning question. Wintermoon also provided some key information with his observation that his L5s and 400s have fine acoustic tone but are not loud enough to replace acoustic versions of the same guitars. And there's some support in this thread for the idea (dare I say fact) that the electric tone of a big carved CES isn't much better (if at all) than that of many "lesser" boxes. I also had an L50 for some years, and it had one of the biggest, most gorgeous sounds I've ever heard from a guitar.
It's possible that raising the action and setting up / playing a CES more like an acoustic L5 or S400 would elevate the level of its sound closer to that of a full acoustic version. But it seems clear to me that most L-5CESs will never sound as good acoustically as their purpose-built acoustic conterparts (even many less fancy and expensive ones). We then come to my big question for this thread: could that crudely inserted CC have hurt the acoustic tone of the poor L-5 on which it was so harshly inflicted and turned it into just another electric archtop?
I think the answer is that an oversized pickup hole in the top, an old school CC hung from that top, and the addition of a heavy wooden surround probably do hurt the acoustic tone of the guitar. If a CES isn't grossly better than a 175 etc through an amp, and it's not a wonderful acoustic instrument, the only reason to buy it is pure and simple love. How much that love should cost is a personal decision. And even the suggested $2500 figure for the Franken5 in this thread may be grossly high, given that it's so ugly only a mother could love it.
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I might generally agree with what you’ve said, except for the general valuation. If the pickup is an actual Gibson CC or a reproduction made to original specs the guitar is worth more for sure. CC modified L-50s and ES-125s routinely sell for 3k+. Heck, I know of a modified Kalamazoo that sold for about $2500 and quickly. This modification isn’t the cleanest and there are a lot of unanswered questions, but $2500 seems below what the market would likely accept by a couple of thousand in my opinion. That number is still far below asking though. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I was feeling charitable on that day. Also, I didn't want to be seen as being a meanie...
What could restore part of its value is to have the CC Blade pickup removed and replaced with a humbucker, the screwmount holes covered up with Mother of Pearl dots, the wooden pickup ring removed and a plastic humbucker ring returned to its place. The pickguard could remain with the cutout for the CC Blade pickup. That could increase its value to about $4000 to the right person.
Edit: It appears that the original humbucker rout was widened for the CC Blade pickup. In that case, the irreversible modification has cost it a loss of value. $2500 remains my best valuation of the guitar. But it could make a really fine player, returned as much as feasible to its original form or used as is, indistinguishable amplified from a real-deal L5 Wes Montogomery.
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And there’s the point of my burning question. If the best it could be (and I think you’re right) is the amplified equal of a real one, and real ones are virtually all used only amplified because they don’t have the unamplified tone and power of their acoustic cousins, and as rpjg said: “I wouldn't want to bet that I could tell the difference in a blindfold test between set or floater, carved or laminate” (which applies to me too), what’s a top line CES doing in my hands to justify its cost besides looking beautiful? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
It’d be fun to tackle making Franken5 normal again. But if I just wanted a nice guitar for gigging, I could do just as well or better with a new Eastman etc for far less. I suspect that most of the top CES models (new or old) are sold because they’re beautiful, they’re a special part of guitar (and jazz) history, and they’re true icons. I still love them, even though I don’t want one. If there’d been an obtainable, affordable 7 string version 20 to 30 years ago, I’d have bought one. But this thread made me realize that in the end, an L-5 or similar CES is just a very, very fine electric archtop. Once the beauty and integrity of its original form are lost to Rube Goldberg, it’s Lester’s log.
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I'd buy it to put a humbucker in it, if the price were right.
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The seller has dropped the price to $6,500. I was surprised to see it has two offers.
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Sold.
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Not surprised at all.
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I would hardly consider that a deal at 6.5k. Not long ago that was top of market for a wes that HADN’T been butchered.
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What's your point? Originally Posted by hotpepper01
I think that a nice guitar like a L5 should not only sound good, plays even better but also has to look fancy and clean. Even after a modification.
Earlier this year I was planning to put humbucker size Alnico V staple pickups in a brandnew L5. That failed due a crack in the top of the L5. Do not be afraid of modifications to a great guitar in order to make it better.
And speaking about "butchering", there was this guy who did it all the time and I think that thanks to his - and others - many attempts and failures we now have our modern gear. look what he once did to a L5. Butchered to the max, has his signature all over, wrong or correct TRC depending how you want to see it, but I think very much a high value collectors item..
Attachment 96383
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How exactly does anyone outside of the seller and buyer know what it sold for?. Just because it was reduced to 6.5K doesn't necessarily mean that was the actual selling price.
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