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I've been playing most of my gigs and rehearsals with a Little Jazz. Sometimes line-out into a PA, but usually just the amp itself.
In my practice room (solo or with a quintet) the LJ always sounds good.
But, on a gig, it varies. Sometimes I like it and sometimes not.
I haven't been able to figure out what to do to make it sound good consistently.
One possibility is that it's my perception that's varying. I've certainly had the experience, with different amps, of hating my sound in the first set, then, without changing anything, liking it in the second set.
Another is that it's amp position and other situational issues. For the kind of gigs I play, I usually don't have a whole lot of flexibility about where to put the amp. And, very little flexibility about the location of the other instruments and speakers.
The LJ has a rear port and it's sensitive to its relationship with the floor and wall behind. Is it an unusually difficult amp to situate?
What is the most consistent kind of rig, if there is one?
Thoughts? Experience?
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09-13-2022 01:00 PM
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Rick, my experience is that every room sounds different and a particular rig with particular settings can sound great in one room and yet sound terrible in another. And a room that gets crowded can change things as well.
My answer to the problem is as follows:
A 2 pickup guitar is a must for the first time in a new room. If it is extremely muddy sounding, blending the pickups (I never use the bridge pickup alone) often helps. If I know a room is not too dark sounding, I might bring a one pickup guitar to the gig.
Tone controls on both the amp and guitar are a must. It can take a bit of experimentation to dial in the right sound for the right room. And when a room fills up (or empties out), some adjustments need to be made. The 4 band EQ of the Henriksen amps has been very helpful in this regard.
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Usually it's the mids that make or break the sound. One of the best solutions to that problem is:
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I forgot to mention ... times when the amp sounds bad to me but musician friends in the audience tell me it's fine where they're sitting.
If I EQ it so that I like the sound, what am I doing to the audience?
Since it's hard to play your best when the gear doesn't sound right to you, I end up adjusting it so that I like it, as best I can, and hope that the sound in the FOH will be okay.
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Tiredness and ear fatigue make the same amp sound great or horrible in the same position from one day to another. As pointed out by others, each venue presents different reflections enhancing or suppressing particular frequencies. More so with open-back cabs. An EQ pedal is a good idea. I also believe that if the amp sounds good to the player, it can't be awful for the audience.
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Scott Henderson runs the a loop of his playing through the amp and then moves around the venue to check the sound out front.
bloody good idea.
you can also use a wireless system
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My regular kb guy does that -- if there's an opportunity for a soundcheck. More often, the venue has background music on with people eating and the kb test doesn't comfortably fit into that situation. Also, the band isn't playing along with his loop -- which actually might not be a bad idea.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I haven't tried it yet. My pedalboard has a looper, so it's something I can easily do.
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Great points. Don't like your amp? Try moving your gig to a different club. Or, come back to the same place in three days. Amp sound great? Don't worry, the audience may still hate it (I don't agree with Gitterbug on that point because of archtop players sounding muddier in the audience). Going to buy the expensive amp of your dreams? Don't forget to track the percentage of times you hate it -- hopefully it will be a lower number than your current amp. <g> Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I recall reading that Jerry Garcia's guitar had a rather elaborate setup all designed to enhance the reproducibility of his sound. I think it had onboard electronics plus he had the signal coming back to the guitar after going through the pedal board so that the guitar had pre and post pedalboard volume controls, among other things.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 09-13-2022 at 08:05 PM.
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Even within your practice room, I'd wager that if you move to extreme positions outside your normal playing location you can make it sound "not great," or at least noticeably different. There is a near-continuous, observable interaction between the sound waves, the location of the surfaces in your room, and the location of your ears. Sit down sounds great. Stand up and get your head closer to the ceiling—maybe it gets boomier when you hit a certain note, that sort of thing. At home, my amps all go on stands, at least a couple of feet from walls and corners, and with an angle that most favors my seating position. At a gig? So many variables, hard to control for all of them.
Last edited by wzpgsr; 09-13-2022 at 05:21 PM.
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Apparently, you might as well select an amp based on weight, price or looks, but then be careful to put it exactly the right place, facing exactly the right way. <g> Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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The stand helps immensely by decoupling the amp from the ground, which can mitigate boomy low end response. Also, I discovered a while ago that my ears are not located at my ankles, so having the amp higher amp helps me hear more direct amp signal vs all reflections. You may have a better time dialing in your sound—at least for your playing location—if you can get the amp closer in height to your head, or at least angled towards it. Most of my stands put the speaker at upper-thigh height and have a bit of a backwards tilt to them. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I think power and an appropriately spec’d speaker might be the most important variables. Reductive EQ can take a lot of gain out of a signal, and things might start to fall apart if your amp has skim-milk output and you’re boosting gain to compensate. It was kind of a revelation, even for my current non-gigging status, to move from a 35 watt Vibrolux clone to a Fender Twin Reverb. The sound of the guitar coming out of the Twin is just so solid and present compared to the VR. It’s a fuller more balanced sound at comparable volumes, it’s easier to dial at all volume levels, and I can’t imagine headroom ever being an issue. My Twin is a head, weight 45 lbs., and I can pair it with either a bastardized 15” Bandmaster cab or a smaller 2x10. Can’t wait to take it out for the first time! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I've seen some really well know players with the best the industry has to offer in terms of crew and equipment that still had bad sound nights.
And as we all know, rooms change with more meat in the seats. Your cohorts also change as things go forward. I'm sure we've all had that thing where you're uncomfortable, but when you check with a respected friend in the audience he says "Sounds really good. Don't change a thing!"
It's impossible!
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I think this is right. It makes sense and it comports with my experience. Some of the best tone-nights I've had were when the speaker was about 6 feet off the floor. Too bad the Little Jazz doesn't have the socket to go on a tripod. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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And roadies to tote in and set up the hundreds of pounds of gear that he used. But yes, repeatability and reliability were the goal. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
His guitars had a setup whereby the signal went to the tone controls and switches, then to a buffer preamp converting the signal to low impedance without using low impedance pickups. From there down one side of a stereo cord, through the effects, then back up the other side of the stereo cable to the volume control. This way the pedals always saw full current because they came before the volume control and the sound of the pedals was therefore constant at any volume. From there, the signal went down a standard cable to the preamp, a silverface Fender Twin modded to be a preamp only. That signal went to a McIntosh power amp (named "Budman") and to three JBLs in a vertical cabinet. Those were miked with Sennheiser 421s to the PA; the last year or two, though, the band had no amps on stage and the signals went direct to the PA in an effort to reduce onstage volume, using in-ear monitors. Apparently that actually harmed their hearing even more...
Too much fooling around for a jazz gig...
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A very loud one; Hiwatt stacks, for example. Otherwise, you are stuck with the inconsistencies of playing in a less than perfect world. Everything that makes a noise will sound different in various places. But does the audience notice? That is the question. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I've been having the same experience with my H Bud. Sometimes it sounds fabulous, sometimes it doesn't.
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I always appreciate a better tone then one I do not like as much, however that has been tricky to have happen repeatedly. I have ways to address and problem solve, but it has a limited impact.
The better I know my gear, the better I can adjust it.
I have two approaches.
I run through different setups at rehearsals and jams. Depending on what my goals are, I tend to bring a different setup each time. I tend to switch out guitars every third time.That way I can get to know how to dial things in fast. That also forces me to accept when things do not work well. (However, I have lately been avoiding heavy amps. I think living on a second story apartment has had a impact on my willingness to carry things. I basically been switching through about 3 or 4 amps).
Second, if I am not gigging often, at home I practice with bad tone, and less then perfect sound levels. That allows me to not get thrown off at a gig where things get less then perfect.
My solution tends to always end up being: practice and think musically.
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In general (not specific to any particular amp model) there are a number of possible reasons why the tone is not consistent (like venue and power etc), but there are two major factors involved that tend to screw up; amp volume and speaker projection.
amp volume
Guitar amp tone (texture and EQ) is volume dependent. Again, there are different reasons for this, but it's actually mostly about the amp and its volume knob, not so much about perception.
Experiment by playing your amp at different volumes in your studio and learn how to tweak the amp to get your tone at different output levels.
speaker projection
If you always keep your amp/cab in the same spot in the studio, you'll hear things differently when your relative position to the speaker changes, e.g when playing on a cramped stage.
Tilt back the speaker cab so that it projects towards your ears.
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The audience typically can't separate a guitar from a trumpet, but I play better and have a good time when I like what I hear. The audience will notice beaming speakers though. If my speakers are projecting towards my knees I won't hear myself. Chances are I'm going to increase volume and treble.... Originally Posted by Litterick
This is an interesting philosophy that I'm practicing myself to some degree (even though I don't like to practice with bad tone) and I mostly agree, but there are pitfalls. The classic example would be; do you stick to one guitar (your signature) or do you switch guitars to alter tone/technique/inspiration? Without doubt, there are situations where I benefit from narrowing down the number of parameters and strive for consistency. Originally Posted by st.bede
Overall I sympathize with the idea to practice and focus on the music, but in this context we must acknowledge that tone is an aspect of music. A guitar player must practice playing his amp. The more rigs he masters (the more amps and guitar models he's familiar with) the more he can focus on his playing...up to the point he becomes a gearhead. I prefer to rotate a modest number of guitars and amps (no more than 3 at the time).
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I use one guitar and a half dozen tube amps; they each have their own characteristic sounds even though five of them are duplicates (two of one and three of another). Of the two, one is sweeter and deeper than the other; of the three, one is "stiff", another is "honky", and the last is "ambient". The remaining one is "neutral".
I choose which I think will sound just right based on experience in the venues (inside space, the acoustics, or outdoors, stage, etc) and which of the bands I'll be with, but I don't always get it right the first time in a new place. Sometimes I take two amps to be sure.
So yeah, we play best (and easiest, with most confidence) when the sound of the amp we hear is just right. That presents a few problems...
- when it sounds just right to you (on stage playing with others) it may be too loud and/or too hot with high end for the audience
- when it sounds just right for the audience it may sound dull and thumpy to you on stage
You don't want to punish the audience, but your hearing of the music (its intelligibility of pitch and harmonies) lives in the high frequencies. Even guitarists who have a helper turn knobs or use a looper so sound check may be played and heard from out in the audience area to get it just right out there will invariably end up either raising their volume and/or treble in desperation soon after starting the first set.
A long time ago, I heard a video of a guitarist that had the tone I wanted. I spent a whole weekend playing with my guitar and amp to find the settings that produced that tone. The first time performing after that I used those settings and had to adjust up treble into the very first song to get back those reassuring crispy highs. But I kept thinking I must trust my new found settings sounding right out front.
I stuck to it and forced myself to keep the new settings... took four performances, about 16 hours, over about a month, to get fairly comfortable with it. A few more months and it was like nothing had changed. What I originally heard as dull and thumpy was now sounding just right. I learned how to hear it so that it was now the sound that made me play best, easiest, and confident.
Just imagine someone who has played the violin or trumpet switching to the double bass or French horn... they get used to the change in tone and learn how to hear it. If you commit your guitar to "audience tone" and keep faith that it really sounds better out front, you can learn to hear it - just takes time.
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Just my 5 cents: The room for sure plays a role. But my own mood, degree of tiredness etc. is almost as important to my perception of tone. That goes for my guitar sound and it was the same for sax and clarinet when I played those instruments. Some days I seemingly couldn't get an acceptable sound at all. Other days I found the sound wonderful with exactly the same mouthpiece and reed.
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After many years of gigging, I came to use the amp as a personal monitor, when there is FOH, and a tilt-back system when there is not, relying on the ceiling to disperse the sound adequately. It is the pleasure of the audience that makes performance possible. Placate the payers, and save artistic satisfaction and sonic perfection for the studio - the only place where you can control enough variables to acheive them.
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