Guitar Intonation Issue

[Patriots2006]

I am having an issue with the G string on my 335. I use to be able to intonate it without issue. Now I have to move the saddle all the way back and it is still sharp. I use a .22 on the guitar. The only difference is I have switched over the past year to an unwound G. Does this affect intonation even though it is the same gauge. I use to use a round wound on the G but thought I would have more versatility for other styles if I could bend it. Hence, the switch to unwound. Anyone ever experience this before?

[Baltar Hornbeek]

You might want to check your neck angle. If it has tilted for some reason, it can reek havoc on your intonation.

[eddue]

Try smaller (.18-.20) G string. It could be that you just can't get the saddle back far enough because of the design of your guitar (not enough string length for a unwound .22 G string)

[billkath]

Press down on the G string at the third fret and check the clearance over the first fret. It could be that the string is binding in the nut slot-the wound string might have bound a little higher in the slot than the unwound, leading to the problem. Answer is a setup from a guitar technician-cost about 35 bucks. If he just needs to cut the slots a little deeper then he might only charge you a tenner.

[rpguitar]

The wound G affects intonation because it has a wider diameter than an unwound string found in a set with the same numbered gauge. (if that makes sense)

Remember that the saddle itself can be flipped such that the straight edge is facing the rear of the guitar. That will give you the absolute longest adjustment range. Of course, if it's already in that position, you have nowhere further to go. But at least check to see.

[Meggy]

The only difference is I have switched over the past year to an unwound G. Does this affect intonation even though it is the same gauge.

I think the answer is yes, and I would expect that you would have to move the saddle further back i.e. away from the neck to get good intonation. I do find it surprising that you run out of adjustment though.

[SamBooka]

Yep.. A plain G will need to be moved back (how much depends on the brand).
As mentioned you can flip the saddle around to get a SMALL amount of clearance. Also make sure your pickups are not too close to the strings.
Make sure the string is seated properly in the nut (if you didnt switch gauges you are probably ok).

.022 is pretty big for a plain string so you might be SOL. Give those things a try first tho.

[chrisp]

I have very much respect to the earlier respondents and responses on this question, but to try to haul in the sideways drifts:

>>> I have switched over the past year to an unwound G. Does this affect intonation even though it is the same gauge.

It is the gauge of the CORE that is the main factor here. On a solid string the whole thing is the core. On a wound string - of ostensibly the same gauge - the core is far thinner. A plain string of a given gauge, tuned to a given pitch, will require far more bridge compensation than a wound string.

>>>Try smaller (.18-.20) G string. It could be that you just can't get the saddle back far enough

No. A smaller gauge string at a given pitch will require MORE bridge saddle setback, not less.

Huh?

Yes. Your E string needs less compensation than your B. But if you tuned your E string to B, it would need more compensation than your existing B string to play reasonably in tune.

>>>Press down on the G string at the third fret and check the clearance over the first fret. It could be that the string is binding in the nut slot-the wound string might have bound a little higher in the slot than the unwound, leading to the problem.

This issue would have almost zero effect on intonation up the board, which is compensated by saddle position. Excess nut height would have significant intonation effects down in the low positions (first to around the 7th fret). This is typically ignored on guitars, but can be improved through nut compensation for critical players. Bridge compensation will not help.

>>>The wound G affects intonation because it has a wider diameter than an unwound string found in a set with the same numbered gauge. (if that makes sense)

The actual external diameter of a wound vs. unwound string has almost no bearing at all on the major difference in saddle compensation. It is the difference in the diameter of the CORE. (A plain string is all core,...)

>>>how much [compensation required] depends on the brand

It is the diameter of the core that matters. I suppose if one brand's .019 plain G was a bit fatter or thinner than another brand's .019, then you would see a difference. But this is not really a branding issue in my opinion.

Again, no disrespect to the earlier responses, just significant disagreement.

To get back to the original question: Have you reversed the saddle to get the effective poition as far back as possible? This is almost always sufficient.

[Patriots2006]

I haven't tried reversing the saddle as of yet by I looked at it and it would indeed give me quite a bit more room. I will let youknow how it works out. Thanks for the replies.

[chrisp]

For what it's worth, it is (in my opinion) overwhelmingly likely that you be able to get good intonation by reversing the saddle.

If you have an ABR-1 type bridge, but are for whatever reason not able to get the compensation that you need, then try a "Nashville" Tune-o-matic. This has more saddle travel.

But again, it is very likely that you will be able to work with the stock bridge.

[itsall4you]

If this doesn't workout the last thing I would try before taking it to a luthier is to unscrew the stop tail piece a little bit.

This results in less tension because the stop angle is smaller. Therefore, your intonation will be a little flatter and you can work from there.

It can change the way the guitar feels so go try and see if it works..

[randyc]

I like that idea (as a last resort). Recall that the L-5CES and Super 400 used to have that adjustment built-in. (The hole for the adjusting screw is still in the tailpieces of those guitars + the L-4CES.)

[chrisp]

Oh yeah, the vestigial tailpiece holes.

Or how about the so called "fingers" tailpiece with individual string adjustments (on the Howard Roberts Fusion and I think the Le Grande). This is a development of a banjo tailpiece (where it actually had a practical effect).

But, and its a big butt, adjusting the height of the stop tailpiece will have no practical effect on saddle compensation.

A very large change in the LENGTH of the non-vibrating string between the bridge and tailpiece would have a small effect. (A MUCH longer non-vibrating section length would result in very slightly less compensation.)

But changing the break angle via the stop tailpiece (then re-tuning) will result in no practical difference.

The adjustment screws on the stop tailpiece are also a partial vestige from their original use as the height adjustment on the wrap-around bridge. Now they are practical for making sure that the strings clear the back of the bridge body while still having enough break over the saddle to keep them in the slots.

Beyond that, they do not pass the "double blind" or even the "single blind" test for any practical tone or intonation change. As for any placebo effect,...

All in my experience and opinion. Others may reasonably disagree.

************************

>>>This results in less tension because the stop angle is smaller.

I do not agree. String tension is indeed changed by the non-vibrating lengths past the nut and bridge, but the effect is very small. And raising the stop tailpiece would, in theory, infinitesimally shorten the non-vibrating length requiring an infinitesimal INCREASE in compensation. In practice, it will have no effect on compensation.

[itsall4you]

Hm.. I have to disagree because I just recently fixed one of my old guitars this way..

And my tuner seemed to agree with me. So whats the deal?

[chrisp]

No idea.

I could be flat out wrong, or there may be something else at work.

Before/after can be a very complex thing.

I'd have to have seen the complete situation before and after the change in stop tailpiece height.

In the end, if you are happy with the results, then that is certainly the most important thing.

And if your opinion and experience can make someone else's guitar sound better to them, that certainly trumps my experience/opinion of the luthio-physics.

[randyc]

I wouldn't disagree with the "correctness" of ANY of these adjustments - some are second order contributors (think of them as verniers) some may be third-order effects (micro-verniers).

The primary physical contributions would be string mass per unit length + string length and string tension. But there are strategies to fine-tune to one's utmost anally-retentive desire for perfect intonation (as if such a thing was possible in our system of tuning and the spacing tolerance, height, width of the frets and strings).

It's certainly not worth an argument ... if the primary adjustment doesn't quite get there, an expediency may be required. Just like LIFE

[eddue]

It is the gauge of the CORE that is the main factor here. On a solid string the whole thing is the core. On a wound string - of ostensibly the same gauge - the core is far thinner. A plain string of a given gauge, tuned to a given pitch, will require far more bridge compensation than a wound string.

>>>Try smaller (.18-.20) G string. It could be that you just can't get the saddle back far enough

No. A smaller gauge string at a given pitch will require MORE bridge saddle setback, not less.

Huh?

Yes. Your E string needs less compensation than your B. But if you tuned your E string to B, it would need more compensation than your existing B string to play reasonably in tune.

Chrisp

One question:

On a 335, the G string is normally smaller than .22 and able to have the correct intonation without any modifications, so what is it about this guitar that a smaller G string would actually make the intonation even more sharp then the .22 that's on there now?

[chrisp]

Hi eddue:

>>>On a 335, the G string is normally smaller than .22 and able to have the correct intonation without any modifications

I definitely agree that this is the case. Although, very often the G, A, and low E saddles need to be installed with the saddle peak toward the rear to make best use of the available adjustment.

With a wound G, it is more likely to be best to leave the saddle facing "forward".

>>>so what is it about this guitar that a smaller G string would actually make the intonation even more sharp then the .22 that's on there now?

Nothing unique about this guitar that I know of.

On any guitar, if we set it up with a plain .022 G string and set the intonation, then changed the G to a .018 plain G - we can expect to need to add more compensation to make the .018 intonate (to the extent that any guitar plays in tune,...)

This is the same with all strings on all guitars. At a given pitch and action height, a lighter gauge string will require more compensation than a heavier gauge string. (Assuming we do not change from wound to unwound or vice-versa.)

A set of .008 to .038 will need more overall compensation (at a given action height) than will a .012 to .052 set.

******************

On a separate issue:

A .022 plain G is a pretty chunky bar of steel. Inharmonicity is likely to be a significant problem as you get well up the FB - this is because the imperfect flexibility of the string will get to be a significant part of the picture as the vibrating length of the .022 gets short.

[eddue]

Unless the bridge saddle adjustments are less than normal or there is some other issue with the guitar, I just can't see how a .20 or .18 will not work on a 335. What were the original gauges?

[chrisp]

From what the original poster says, there is nothing even slightly out of the ordinary going on here.

He has not reversed the G saddle, and is having trouble getting it back far enough for a plain G. This is completely typical, and easily fixed by reversing the saddle.

If after reversing the saddle, he is still not able to get the intonation set to his liking, then there is an actual guitar adventure in play.

My original comment was more regarding the sideways speculations along the way. The basic problem is to be expected and is easily fixed.

I agree that a .022 (a .22 would be rather large) or a .018 can be set up with no practical trouble using a stock 335. I suppose if you wanted to use a plain .012 G, and very high action, you may run out of travel even with the stock bridge. But that is not the case here.

[eddue]

I think a new 335 comes with a .17 G string. You should be able to go a little smaller or larger without any problems.

Chrisp

If I understand your earlier post, you said that going to a smaller(than .22) G string would require moving the saddle back even further, and it was at the end of adjustments. Reversing the saddle would help but there has to be something else wrong here if the bridge can't be adjusted for anything smaller than a .22 G string. The only thing I can see is that the bridge itself may not be far enough back on the mounting posts.

[Big Ron]

Yep - a plain G and a wound G and different windings of a G will all have different intonation settings.

Big Ron

[chrisp]

Edoardo II,

>>>If I understand your earlier post, you said that going to a smaller(than .22) G string would require moving the saddle back even further, and it was at the end of adjustments. Reversing the saddle would help but there has to be something else wrong here if the bridge can't be adjusted for anything smaller than a .22 G string. The only thing I can see is that the bridge itself may not be far enough back on the mounting posts.

Well let's step back from the ledge a little here.

All we know is that a competent/sane guitar player switched from a wound G to a plain G and is unhappy with the intonation. He moved the saddle all the way back with a plain .022 and is still reporting that he is riding sharp.

He also reports that he can reverse the saddle, which makes quite a bit of difference.

Only if he reports insufficient travel after reversing the saddle do we have something that may be a problem.

So until then we are just kicking around the general issues of guitar bridge compensation for improved intonation.

So to do that:

>>>you said that going to a smaller(than .22) G string would require moving the saddle back even further,

Yes. If you are happy with the intonation of a plain G .022, then go lighter, you will need to move the saddle back to get the same intonation performance you had with the .022.

>>>and it was at the end of adjustments.

If the saddle is not reversed, then it is not at the end of the adjustment range.

>>> Reversing the saddle would help but there has to be something else wrong here if the bridge can't be adjusted for anything smaller than a .22 G string.

Reversing the saddle does quite a bit, and I consider it very likely that this will solve the problem. It is a common situation and a common fix.

>>>The only thing I can see is that the bridge itself may not be far enough back on the mounting posts.

We are a loooong way from even beginning to suspect this to be the case.

Yes, if you exhaust all possibilities then it is worth looking at the post positions. But bad post position is really a rare thing on a competently made guitar.

VERY roughly stated, most strings and action heights result in bridge compensation that ranges from a touch under 1/16th inch (~1.5 mm) to a bit over 3/16th inch (~4.75 mm).

The low end of the compensation range will be for a heavy high E (~.013 or .014) and low action (under 1/16th at the 12th fret).

The high end of the range will typically be for a light low E (~.042) and high action (over 3/16 at the 12th fret).

A heavy wound G with low action can get toward the low end of the typical compensation range, and a light plain G with high action can get toward the high end of the typical compensation range.

And there are always wacky exceptions (particularly requiring more compensation), but this is the general situation.

Usually the trickiest string is a plain G. The T-O-M bridge is slanted and you need to make the high E and plain G happy with only a small difference in the bridge body position.

But again, reversing the saddle usually does it.

If Pat's 06 writes back that he is still not happy with the intonation, it would be time to check:

Action height: Is it way out there?

Neck relief: Is it at some extreme?

The exact string in question: A single wacky string is not common, but far from unheard-of.

And,...

How is he measuring intonation? Is it sharp only at the 12th? What about the 9th? 15th? 17th? Sometimes the 12th fret intonation is an anomaly.

[SamBooka]

I like that idea (as a last resort). Recall that the L-5CES and Super 400 used to have that adjustment built-in. (The hole for the adjusting screw is still in the tailpieces of those guitars + the L-4CES.)

Hey Randy,

I think the the L5 book (the one with all the mistakes) the mention that the set screw was to be able to change the break angle of the strings (and therefore the tone) of the guitar. It didt make a huge difference so most people either a) set it and forget it or b) didnt even know why it was there.

Have you tried yours? If so did you notice much difference?

Drew

[randyc]

That would be an interesting experiment, Drew - wish that I could try it.

The newer L-4CES, L-5CES and Super 400 guitars just have the hole; the rest of the gear (the screw and the metal bearing block) seem to have been omitted quite a while ago, maybe in the early forties?

As you say, the point was to modify the break angle. Varying the break angle varies the coupling from bridge to top, as well as modifying tension and intonation slightly. Personally, I can't help but think that changing the break angle would only be useful with ultra-heavy strings such as those used by guitarists prior to amplification.

Once amplification became common, there was little need for such tinkering around and reasonable diameter (smaller) strings became common.

Cheers,
Randy

PS: point being that little tonal variation can be expected with modern strings but that intonation would still be affected.