Modelling amp? Which model for Jazz?

[j4zz]

I have a Fender GT100 (upgraded same firmware as GTX), and I have been experimenting with the different amp and cabinet models. Just wondering if anyone else uses a modelling amp for Jazz, what type, and what real amp model would you target?

Maybe the Blues Jr - or the Twin Reverb, or ???

[John A.]

I use a Fender Champion 20. I use the Deluxe Reverb model probably 90% of the time, and occasionally the tweed Bassman. I happen to have a Princeton Reverb, and in the real world I usually prefer that to a DR, but the DR model sounds better than the PR in the C20.

Note, I didn't say it sounds more realistic because neither truly sounds like the real thing to me (I think the form factor of the cabinet and the speaker are the likely reasons). So I don't look at picking a sound out of one the Fender modellers in terms of targeting a particular amp. I just look for a sound I like by trial and error.

[j4zz]

I use a Fender Champion 20. I use the Deluxe Reverb model probably 90% of the time, and occasionally the tweed Bassman. I happen to have a Princeton Reverb, and in the real world I usually prefer that to a DR, but the DR model sounds better than the PR in the C20.

Note, I didn't say it sounds more realistic because neither truly sounds like the real thing to me (I think the form factor of the cabinet and the speaker are the likely reasons). So I don't look at picking a sound out of one the Fender modellers in terms of targeting a particular amp. I just look for a sound I like by trial and error.

I wasn't aware of your amp (Fender Champion 20), but I just looked it up. Nice amp. I bought the Mustang gt100 simply because I plugged into one in the shop and the Twin Reverb model sounded so right, I just bought it straight away. The music I was playing at the time was blues and layback rock/pop. Now I am more into jazz, and so I am trying different models more.

Very interesting you mention the tweed bassman. That's a model I have on my short list of the fender amps that I really like the sound of, for jazz. The other is the Roland Jazz Chorus - but it's a totally different kind of jazz sound. To be honest, you can get a jazz sound out of most of the models if you dial them in right. With mine, it's so flexible because you can swap the speaker cabinet models around too. For example, the Twin with a Showman JBL cabinet cuttingly clean for blues.

[CliffR]

I use the AxeFX Prince Tone model. A few days ago I saw a recommendation from somebody here to try the EV12L RNR1 cab, and sure enough it's really opened up the sound and given me lots more mids. The Fractal fanatics are always talking about how important the cab sim is, and it looks like they may be right.

[John A.]

I wasn't aware of your amp (Fender Champion 20), but I just looked it up. Nice amp. I bought the Mustang gt100 simply because I plugged into one in the shop and the Twin Reverb model sounded so right, I just bought it straight away. The music I was playing at the time was blues and layback rock/pop. Now I am more into jazz, and so I am trying different models more.

Very interesting you mention the tweed bassman. That's a model I have on my short list of the fender amps that I really like the sound of, for jazz. The other is the Roland Jazz Chorus - but it's a totally different kind of jazz sound. To be honest, you can get a jazz sound out of most of the models if you dial them in right. With mine, it's so flexible because you can swap the speaker cabinet models around too. For example, the Twin with a Showman JBL cabinet cuttingly clean for blues.

I find the Bassman model with the gain turned pretty far up sometimes works better with my Strat than the DR model. The Strat kind of needs a little "hair" on the amp, even with ostensibly clean sounds. I use the amp mainly for gigs and jam sessions at small places where there's no house amp, so portability and simplicity (knobs rather than menus) are more important for me than flexibility. I've tried a couple of the Mustangs (in stores and at jam sessions), and couldn't get a sound I liked out of them. I'm sure they're in there because it uses the same models as the Champion series, but I can't deal with menus on an amp, and definitely don't want to go down the rabbit hole of tweaking amp parameters on a computer. I've played through a bunch of other modelling amps at sessions, and the experience has been consistent -- presets on menu-driven amps annoy me, menus annoy me even more. Getting a sound I can deal with out of anything that doesn't use simple knobs is too hard for this boomer brain of mine.

Also, I think one has to recognize that the size and shape of the physical cabinet of the amp affects the sound, so you can never get the sound of a Twin out of a box that's 25% of a Twin's size and has an 8" speaker. You can get a good sound with the Twin model and various speaker models (if tweakable), but it won't exactly be a Twin sound, much of which's sound comes from moving air with 2 12" speakers in a box of a specific size. So my approach to getting a sound out my modeling amps (I also have a Roland MicroCube) is to think of the models as just settings, not as emulations of anything specific, listen for what I like, and play that. So (at the risk of repeating myself), my basic answer to your question is "ignore the model name and just use your ears to find and tweak a sound you like." Honestly, I don't "target" models for a jazz or other sound when playing through one of these amps live. I just turn knobs until it sounds good, and if it doesn't have knobs, I resign myself to sounding bad.

[JSanta]

A friend of mine is using one of those Boss Katana's and it sounds quite nice with his Ibanez archtops. I had a Line 6 Helix LT that was excellent. But way overkill for most jazz applications IMO. Another buddy that is primarily a metal player bought it from me and is very happy with it.

[TedBPhx]

Kept using the Fender Twin model in apps and amps. So I dumped the Katana and bought a Fender ToneMaster Twin. It’s a modeler for exactly one model which it does very well.

[Bluedawg]

Kept using the Fender Twin model in apps and amps. So I dumped the Katana and bought a Fender ToneMaster Twin. It’s a modeler for exactly one model which it does very well.

Those Tone Master Fenders look interesting.

A 33 pound Twin could be a back saver.

[j4zz]

I use the AxeFX Prince Tone model. A few days ago I saw a recommendation from somebody here to try the EV12L RNR1 cab, and sure enough it's really opened up the sound and given me lots more mids. The Fractal fanatics are always talking about how important the cab sim is, and it looks like they may be right.

I makes a lot of difference to the Fender models. More than other things like the bias and sag adjustments for example. I suppose that is to be expected..

[j4zz]

I find the Bassman model with the gain turned pretty far up sometimes works better with my Strat than the DR model. The Strat kind of needs a little "hair" on the amp, even with ostensibly clean sounds. I use the amp mainly for gigs and jam sessions at small places where there's no house amp, so portability and simplicity (knobs rather than menus) are more important for me than flexibility. I've tried a couple of the Mustangs (in stores and at jam sessions), and couldn't get a sound I liked out of them. I'm sure they're in there because it uses the same models as the Champion series, but I can't deal with menus on an amp, and definitely don't want to go down the rabbit hole of tweaking amp parameters on a computer. I've played through a bunch of other modelling amps at sessions, and the experience has been consistent -- presets on menu-driven amps annoy me, menus annoy me even more. Getting a sound I can deal with out of anything that doesn't use simple knobs is too hard for this boomer brain of mine.

Also, I think one has to recognize that the size and shape of the physical cabinet of the amp affects the sound, so you can never get the sound of a Twin out of a box that's 25% of a Twin's size and has an 8" speaker. You can get a good sound with the Twin model and various speaker models (if tweakable), but it won't exactly be a Twin sound, much of which's sound comes from moving air with 2 12" speakers in a box of a specific size. So my approach to getting a sound out my modeling amps (I also have a Roland MicroCube) is to think of the models as just settings, not as emulations of anything specific, listen for what I like, and play that. So (at the risk of repeating myself), my basic answer to your question is "ignore the model name and just use your ears to find and tweak a sound you like." Honestly, I don't "target" models for a jazz or other sound when playing through one of these amps live. I just turn knobs until it sounds good, and if it doesn't have knobs, I resign myself to sounding bad.

I like to set gain so that it is clean for single notes and light strums, but I can hit double strings hard and get a bit of dirt. Happily the models are easily respnsive enough to do this.

The presets on a Mustang are nearly all really bad. To test the amp, I just set it to the basic Twin model and spent a few minutes exploring the settings. It was enough to convince me, as you said, that the sounds I wanted were in there.

I also agree that a small speaker can never sound like a large one, no matter what modelling is applied. Yes, and in the end, I won't care which model I am using as long as the sound is good.

[j4zz]

Kept using the Fender Twin model in apps and amps. So I dumped the Katana and bought a Fender ToneMaster Twin. It’s a modeler for exactly one model which it does very well.

I could live with that.

[j4zz]

Those Tone Master Fenders look interesting.

A 33 pound Twin could be a back saver.

The Tonemasters started coming out after I bought the Mustang. I can see why Fender are doing it - the models of their own amps are really quite good IMHO, so why not use them in a dedicated amp replica.

[Bluedawg]

The Tonemasters started coming out after I bought the Mustang. I can see why Fender are doing it - the models of their own amps are really quite good IMHO, so why not use them in a dedicated amp replica.

I have a Mustang III amp. Like it a lot.

Does great for home playing, but I struggle to set up solid state amps to cut through when I play with a group.

They don't seem to have the same power that tubes do. Maybe the Tone Master amps are set up better for that.

[mad dog]

I'm enjoying the Fender Super Champ X2. Not so much as a combo, but using it as a head for various cabinets. It's a tube amp, 2x6v6, mostly SS preamp, with all the sound options have at least some DSP modeling. Less DSP in the clean only channel. The other channel has 17 (I think) voicings, each a model of one type of amp/amp setting. Using FUSE software, you can change various parameters on each voicing ... including certain added effects, cabinet sims, bias level, EQ.

I prefer the clean only channel, which is pre-set, with only mids being changed. And one of the voices - deluxe reverb - with no cab sims. For the quite modest price used, this is one great sounding tube amp.

[Spook410]

Using a Strymon Iridium into a couple of different speakers. Not an inexpensive rig after you add all the bits together but it sounds good and is very flexible.

[j4zz]

I have a Mustang III amp. Like it a lot.

Does great for home playing, but I struggle to set up solid state amps to cut through when I play with a group.

They don't seem to have the same power that tubes do. Maybe the Tone Master amps are set up better for that.

The earlier Mustangs were a bit different to the GT40/100/200. Some say the earlier Mustangs had a better sound in their own right. The GT100 has a wide range speaker that allows the cabinet models to be truer to the original, and the Icepower class D power amp they used can cut through just about anything. I expect the Tonemasters are more like the GT100 (but with different power amps)

[Danny W.]

I do all my gigs straight into Acoustic Image amps and usually play jazz at home the same way. Also have this, mostly rock rock & pop::



When I do play jazz through it I usually use the "Prince Tone" model. I made my own preset for this, but I've found that the current basic factory Princeton preset is fine. The Axe-Fx III has a number of Fender models, most of which seem to work well for me. Note that if I want a really unadorned jazz tone I can just select a bypass preset and turn the tweeters on the Razor's Edge cabinets down, but that's more work than plugging into one of my AI combos.

Danny W.

[j4zz]

[QUOTE=Danny W.;1193184
When I do play jazz through it I usually use the "Prince Tone" model. I made my own preset for this, but I've found that the current basic factory Princeton preset is fine. The Axe-Fx III has a number of Fender models, most of which seem to work well for me.
Danny W.[/QUOTE]

What most consistantly impresses me, for a small amp, is any Fender amplifier based on the two 6V6 valves. They were used in Princeton, Deluxe and other Fender amps, usually producing 15 watts or a little more. Seems to be the sweet spot for a small amp. Hence I built one of my own. The modelling amp versions are all good and very usable as well.

[EllenGtrGrl]

Those Tone Master Fenders look interesting.

A 33 pound Twin could be a back saver.

Yep, that's one of the reasons why I have a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb - it's nice and light! I'm sick of lugging heavy amps! Oh yeah, and it sounds good.

[guavajelly]

I messed around with the amp models in logic. Usually one of the black face models. I just found out that for a jazz tone the model of a single 10” speaker is nicer than all the 12” (1x12, 2x12). The speaker model or impulse response makes a big difference IMHO. Gave me the idea I should look for real amps with 10” speakers btw. ;-)

[j4zz]

I messed around with the amp models in logic. Usually one of the black face models. I just found out that for a jazz tone the model of a single 10” speaker is nicer than all the 12” (1x12, 2x12). The speaker model or impulse response makes a big difference IMHO. Gave me the idea I should look for real amps with 10” speakers btw. ;-)

Well, yes and no. Listening to examples on youtube I think a lot of people have very different ideas on what the best jazz tone is. So yes, for you, maybe a 10". I still like that bigger sound of a 12", but hey, I am also enjoying the tone I am getting out of my little Nux Mighty Lite BT - which is the smallest modelling amp I have seen - with a 3" speaker, but I don't know what size speaker they used for the IR for whatever it is modelling.

[John A.]

I messed around with the amp models in logic. Usually one of the black face models. I just found out that for a jazz tone the model of a single 10” speaker is nicer than all the 12” (1x12, 2x12). The speaker model or impulse response makes a big difference IMHO. Gave me the idea I should look for real amps with 10” speakers btw. ;-)

I use GarageBand, which has the same models. Sometimes the single 12 or 10 cabs sound better, but I usually wind up with the 2x12 paired with the large BF amp (which I think is a Super Reverb). I also mess around with the mic models a bit.

[fep]

This is a bit of a tangent, sort of. I have Amplitube 5 and many (most) of the presets don't sound very good, they're too bright at least to me. But, if you adjust the controls you can get good jazz tones from many of the amps. I tend to use the '57 Deluxe with the matching speaker. I add the Fender reverb pedal to it. This one is a winner for simplicity with just a volume knob and a tone knob.

A surprising one that sounds good for jazz is the Amplitube Metal Clean T with matching cabinet (what!). So it is surprising what you can find.

Check this guy out for really dialing in a sound, pretty amazing what can be done if you really spend some time and know what you're doing. (But demerits for complexity. I don't think I'd want to try to take it this far.)

[Spook410]

Well, yes and no. Listening to examples on youtube I think a lot of people have very different ideas on what the best jazz tone is....

There was once a discussion on this forum about how our own perception of our tone can change from day to day. What sounded great yesterday may sound dull, strident, or brittle today. While I found this to be far fetched initially, over time, it turns out to be true at least for me. This is one of the advantages of something you can program. The Strymon Iridium has very limited options but I will switch between speaker IR's from time to time and even between a blackface and Vox model. I know it sounds fidgety and unnecessary. However in practice, it helps dial in what I want to hear in the moment and the capability is applied more frequently than I would have thought.

[j4zz]

This is a bit of a tangent, sort of. I have Amplitube 5 and many (most) of the presets don't sound very good, they're too bright at least to me. But, if you adjust the controls you can get good jazz tones from many of the amps. I tend to use the '57 Deluxe with the matching speaker. I add the Fender reverb pedal to it. This one is a winner for simplicity with just a volume knob and a tone knob.

A surprising one that sounds good for jazz is the Amplitube Metal Clean T with matching cabinet (what!). So it is surprising what you can find.

I know exactly what you mean. I got some tones out of a Mesa Boogie IIC model that sounded nice. Yes, and take any amp, add a reverb pedal, then see what can be done - often it is quite possible to dial in a good sound.