Advice regarding archtop purchase

[Alea]

Hi all,

I hope it's okay asking for some advice regarding stepping into the world of archtops. This would be my first archtop purchase, and I'm looking for something that could last me a while and that I can grow with. Preferably something adaptable that I could play amplified/unamplified at jam sessions and also unamplified for e.g. at a small - not concert hall size or anything - swing dance session, occasional busking and acoustic at home. My budget, when pushed, is around 1.000 EUR, but I find a way to push a bit higher if the quality jump is worth it as I want to invest in something long-term.


Would be nice to have:

• Solid top
• Floating pickup (or maybe top-mounted)
• 16-17" lower bout
• Cutaway

I'm only looking at guitars I can get my hands on and play, so not really looking for something online. I've narrowed down a few options that are within my reach (distance and budget):


Tried:

• Loar LH650 - Solid guitar and seemed loud. It was strung with 10s though, so it was hard to get a reliable impression for the volume/sound and I didn't immediately connect with it.
• Epiphone Emperor Regent - I realise not a solid top but it was nearby and figured worth trying out. Also strung with 10s unfortunately. It felt louder than the Loar (but I understand that could simply be my perception/misremembering and also that it doesn't project the sound forward like the Loar). Was a nice guitar to play and sounded nice plugged in.

Not tried but could:

• Eastman AR810CE
• Eastman AR503CE
• Hofner 459S
• Stanford CR Vanguard

There are a few other less well known solid wood vintage archtops (Rodebald Hoyer Jazzstar, Cremona 463 [no cutaway though], Arnold Hoyer) that I could try but, for example, they don't have truss rods and it's hard to tell how much initial work they need done to be playable.


I guess part of me is asking for advice/experience involving the above guitars, and part of me is seeking advice for how I can approach this without becoming completely stuck and worrying about making the wrong decision.

Thanks!

[Christian Miller]

Hold out for an Eastman

[Christian Miller]

I have a Loar lh600 and they are loud and great for swing, but I did need to do some work to mine. But I do love it. I picked mine up for 350gbp though so I was happy with what I got (!). If I was paying nearer a grand I might not be so forgiving.

Eastmans also have a strong acoustic voice, even the laminates. I think they are worth having if you have the money.

[BBGuitar]

I would go with Eastman.

[citizenk74]

[itsmyname]

I like the way you welcome everybody and I like your blues sound too !

[citizenk74]

I like the way you welcome everybody and I like your blues sound too !

Thank you so very much! Feedback (off-stage) is always welcome, positive feedback doubly so. Appreciate it!

[339 in june]

My vote is for Eastman AR503CE
I have one and I'm very happy with it. I only play this unplugged now so I stringed it with Phosphore Bronze but as far as I remember, electric sound was quite good too.
Quite a bit more than one grand if new, and they seem to hold a high price when used, but if you can try one, I guess you'll be convinced

[Jimmy blue note]

Eastman, well built and if you're really going to play it, it's going to reward you by aging and getting better through your playing.

[RJVB]

I'd try that Loar again if you can, and maybe ask if a bit heavier strings could be installed. I think these came with 12s from the factory, but I think they need at least a 13 E1 and 16 B to get the kind of round trebles you'd expect from an archtop.
It's not surprising at all not to have felt a connection if you never played archtops before. The same can happen when you first start looking at a much better instrument. I don't know what kind of guitar(s) you have currently, but I still remember when I was looking for my first "good" violin. I kept being attracted by instruments that were hardly better than the one I had, but fortunately a luthier or my teacher told me that was because I was used to that sound and knew how to play those instruments (or rather, they were more forgiving of sloppy playing so I had never been challenged to play better).

When I was in your situation, not even half a year ago, several members here (and in the archtop section on the AGF) convinced me to go the cheaper (than Eastman) route with an LH650 rather than spending a lot more on an Eastman that I might find sound a bit too much like a flattop.

And I must say I don't regret it. When I first got mine I was a bit underwhelmed too - she had old strings (Plectrum AC112s) and the saddle was way too far back. Took her home, corrected the saddle position and changed strings (possibly in the opposite order) and fixed the worst buzzes, and began to warm up to her. We're continuing to warm up to each other, as she continues to get broken in (mine is a 2017 and she was clearly hardly played).

IMHO the Eastman equivalent in terms of sound quality and future potential would be an AR805ce or possibly AR605cr (the mahogany-backed variant). The latter is a bit less expensive but still a lot more than what an LH650 should cost.

Maybe campusfive (Jonathan Stout) will chime in - he plays acoustically in swing bands, and I understand he had a Loar (presumably an LH700). They're much more period correct than Eastmans for this kind of music (and LH600s are probably much easier to find than the LH650; adding a floating pickup isn't a big deal).

[Alea]

Thanks for all the advice! I'm thinking I'll give the Loar another chance in that case and buy some heavier strings for it.

[skykomishone]

I'm a big fan of the Pisano's Eastman makes. John really nailed the designs on these. Great values. The 680 and 880's. You should check them out.

[Gitterbug]

My vote for Emperor Regent, if you can find a good Korean-made sample. Mine is from -99, the first archtop after 25 years' absence from playing. There are five others now, including a Benedetto and two Gibsons, but the Epi will be the last to leave. It just keeps getting better.

[RJVB]

I'm thinking I'll give the Loar another chance in that case and buy some heavier strings for it.

Good call - given their relative rarity I have to assume you should be able to sell her without loss should you decide to (esp. if you happen to have found a blonde version). I can have a look at the pics if you want, see if notice any red flags.

Strings: The pickup on mine works surprisingly well with brass-wound strings (maybe a previous owner tuned it for that), allowing to select strings based on acoustic sound quality. I find that the TI Plectrum AC112s work great (with heavier trebles) but the cheaper Earthwood Silk and Steel are very close in sound.

I have other strings I want to try on mine but for once I'm enjoying the guitar too much with the strings I'm using currently so I can't bring myself to swap too often

[Christian Miller]

It really depends how much of a swing purist you are.

If you want you bleed through every orifice and are happy to do so in the pursuit of vintage accuracy get a Loar LH600, work to set it up well and play it acoustically in the way Jonathan discussed for instance in this article.

The realities of playing Acoustic Swing Rhythm Guitar — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

Prepare for battle not just with the patchy fit and finish on Loar instruments but also with sound engineers, drummers, bass players and band leaders...

Personally I've moved away from that stuff and I am quite annoyed with myself for wasting so many years trying to do it. No-one cares about it much, so you have to be on a mission, and it's best to also be a bandleader.

I should have played a Gibson plugged into a Fender instead lol.

If you want a nice guitar to play on gigs with a good amplified voice, build quality and loud acoustic sound, get the Eastman.

As you mentioned the Loar LH650, I assume you are more interested in an electric guitar. Which is not what the Loar excels at IMO.

Another option - Godin 5th Avenue with the set in P90 and a Junior Barnyard pedal. Great guitars and the pedal will get you into Charlie Christian territory.

[Woody Sound]

My vote for Emperor Regent, if you can find a good Korean-made sample. Mine is from -99, the first archtop after 25 years' absence from playing. There are five others now, including a Benedetto and two Gibsons, but the Epi will be the last to leave. It just keeps getting better.

Are those solid carved tops? I didn't know that. OP wants a solid top.

[Christian Miller]

I like the Regents but I don't think they are very loud acoustically.

[RJVB]

Threads that helped shape my decision - have a look towards the end of each as there appear not to have been posts since I finished my deal:

Looking for used acoustic (+ electric) archtop - LH650 or AR805

Loar LH-650

The Loar LH-600

Eastman AR805ce vs AR810ce

In at least 1 of those threads you should be able to find claims that the Loar is in a class of its own soundwise, above the typical Eastmans. I can't confirm that, but for what I do I cannot imagine that an AR805ce or AR605ce costing about 3x (used!) what I paid also sounds 3x better and/or louder. I've seen new AR805ce's go for around 4k€; for that price you can also get a EU-built luthier instrument.

You can also find the YT video showing a comparison of 2 L5-inspired Cranmer guitars, identical except for the bracing (parallel vs. X). This also helped me decide that I'd probably prefer the sound of parallel bracing.
There's also a YT video of Steve Zook comparing recent (laminate) Epiphones with the Loar archtops (which he was selling at the time, TBH).

Yes, the Loar have a QC problem, but that issue is moot if you find a used one that has either been sorted out or was picked from among the good ones.

AFAIK the AR[68]05ce also come with a floating Kent Armstrong pickup, I have to assume it must be the same as the one on the Loar (for all I know those guitars all come from the same workshops, or are made by people working in both).

I don't want (because I have no basis) to contradict Christian w.r.t. use in acoustic swing groups. Maybe you can indeed find plywood instruments that are louder acoustically than an all-solid-woods LH-[67]x0 but I'm not going to believe that can sound as good solo (read, at home) ... which is how you'll be hearing the guitar most of the time.

FWIW, if I could and did want to spend between 2k and 3k€, I'd try to find a used d'Aquisto New Yorker (as made by Aria in Japan) and see if I can manage a 17" lower bout (and live with the ridiculous headstock). You might even find one for less.

[Christian Miller]

I don't want (because I have no basis) to contradict Christian w.r.t. use in acoustic swing groups. Maybe you can indeed find plywood instruments that are louder acoustically than an all-solid-woods LH-[67]x0 but I'm not going to believe that can sound as good solo (read, at home) ... which is how you'll be hearing the guitar most of the time.

It's the ravings of an angry man, so feel free to contradict.

I ask only this - do not imagine that being inaudible on swing dance gigs will guarantee you some special dispensation in the afterlife.

[RJVB]

It's the ravings of an angry man, so feel free to contradict.

Don't worry, I feel free enough, but simply have nothing to contradict you with

But if I were to ask you something it'd be to provide reproducible acoustic loudness measurement of the guitars you think so much better for swing dance gigs!


NB: we don't know exactly what kind of swing with what other instruments!

[sgosnell]

I think what Christian is saying is that purely acoustic archtops, like many other things, are obsolete, and only useful for a tiny niche of guitar playing. These days everything is amplified - horns, basses, drums, pianos, absolutely everything. If you want to play with others outside your bedroom, you need to be amplified in some way, whether it's a microphone or some sort of pickup system. Microphones are very problematic and fussy to use. With a magnetic pickup, it's just plug and play. And for electric guitar, a carved solid top is not necessarily an asset. For bedroom players, yes, but not for most professional musicians, nor for anyone who wants to play outside the home. That has been the case for more than 80 years, but tradition dies hard with guitar players, if it ever does, and I've seen very little decline, much less death. I have several archtops with solid carved tops, and I really like them, but I tend to play a laminate with set humbucker more often. The top is not the only factor one should consider in a guitar.

[RJVB]

I think what Christian is saying is that purely acoustic archtops, like many other things, are obsolete, and only useful for a tiny niche of guitar playing.

Not to tread on any toes, but I consider the electric guitar a different animal that's only called guitar because it happens to use the same strings and be played in a comparable way. I agree you don't need a carved top on those, in fact it's my opinion they don't need a body at all (which is not to say the body doesn't have some influence on sound).
Separate e-guitars from "true" guitars, widen the scope of application beyond jazz and the acoustic archtop is in a much less shallow niche, IMHO.

When I just started to be interested in buying an archtop, half a year ago, someone over on the AGF (Steve de Rosa?) claimed that the archtop could at least have become the American version of the classical guitar. In fact, that's my rephrasing; his actual claim was a lot stronger and I didn't believe him. Playing mine however I get more and more convinced that he could be right in my rephrased version - and fortunately people like Rob MacKillop and William Bay seem to be trying to raise awareness of that.

[Christian Miller]

Don't worry, I feel free enough, but simply have nothing to contradict you with

But if I were to ask you something it'd be to provide reproducible acoustic loudness measurement of the guitars you think so much better for swing dance gigs!


NB: we don't know exactly what kind of swing with what other instruments!

I don't think playing purely acoustic guitars on swing gigs is generally viable at all in the real world for any lineup with drums. Occasionally, in the right circumstances.

I would actually also say this about mic'ed set ups. Because then you have problems with feedback.

Bear in mind Jonathan is booking and MD'ing the gigs and calling the shots, and this his absolute artistic focus as a player. I was always working as a sideman, so my experience is totally different. Many (although not all) bandleaders simply do not have the patience to deal with the problems and schedules rarely allow much time for guitar soundcheck.

OTOH if you have bad live sound, you will get the blame.

At the height of my playing this sort of stuff I was doing around 200 shows a year, and it was THE BANE OF MY LIFE. If I'd been more experienced and self respecting (and less sold on the idea of 'doing it properly') I would have turned up with a Godin 5th Avenue and a Fender Pro Junior or something and if they never called me again I would have been well rid of them. Life is too short - unless it is your raison d'etre.

(In practice I ended up using a Macaferri with a piezo but I was never happy with the lead sound.)

I would love an old Gibson L7 or something. But I would never play it on gigs.

Anyway in terms of OP guitar choice, doesn't make a huge difference, they are all jazz boxes with pickups and they will all do the job.

My impression is that Eastman offer good bang for buck, have a strong acoustic voice and good pickups. I've not heard great things about the Loar LH650 as an electric, but I don't actually have any experience with one. My suggestion would be not to rule out an ES125 - type guitar, of which the Godin is a good example. Or a 175 for that matter, which is basically a 125 with a cutaway.

Also bear in mind - if you want to mic the box, it may be better in terms of feedback to have a quieter box anyway. So Godin starts to look really attractive.

As far as the gigs themselves most of the time the kids just want to swing out to a cooking version of Stompin' at the Savoy or whatever. They don't care if its period correct. I'm not saying it follows that no-one else should care, but if you want to go and rediscover the lost art of American plectrum guitar that's a different thing (and even Munisteri plays electric live a lot I notice).

[RJVB]

All I can counter with is that all the swing/jazz performances I've been at were purely acoustic, possibly lightly miked but definitely no electric PUs, and outside. No[t much] dancing even if they certainly set the mood.

The only big jazz festival I ever went to (at La Ferté sous Jouarre) was very good at keeping the amplification at sane levels (but did distribute hearing protection for the kids, bit of a shocker for someone used to classical concerts )

if you want to go and rediscover the lost art of American plectrum guitar that's a different thing (and even Munisteri plays electric live a lot I notice).

I'd say (largely) forgotten, not lost - and personally I'm discovering it for the 1st time ... plus playing it fingerstyle, hehe

[burchyk]

I won't put too much stress on the solid top - some of those are heavier than some laminates. A good Eastman is hard to beat for the money.