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I'm looking for recommendations on replacing the speaker in my Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue with a neodymium speaker. I'm pretty happy with the amp as-is, but I'm looking to reduce the weight of the amp. Tone-wise I'm looking for lots of headroom and a warm sound for classic jazz.
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03-19-2022 02:54 PM
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I’ve been a fan of the Eminence DeltaPro, used in a Princeton Reverb (mod to 12”) and a Theil cabinet with good warm results.
I have the newer version, DeltaLite II 2512. It seems to not have the warmth the original had. But I’m still trying it.
Couple of months ago I picked up the Quilter Block Dock 12, which has the Celestion
BN12-300S in it. I’m really liking that speaker, it’s definitely warm, has a good response and detailed sound.
The Deltas are sound reinforcement speakers, thus full range. The Celestion is a bass speaker.
All up to your ears, guitar, amp, style, etc.
Good luck!
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Jensen N12/100 TR, i.e. classic Tornado. It's a guitar speaker to begin with. Used by many boutique builders, including myself.
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Gbug: have you tried the ones I listed? I found the Jensens to be somewhat harsh.
jk
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Doesn't the speaker have to be matched to the cabinet?
Or is that not true for open back cabs?
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I’m not sure what you mean by “matched to the cabinet”.
IMHO its about the sound you perceive as opposed to a predefined “match”.
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I read a book years ago called something like Loudspeaker Design.
Originally Posted by jazzkritter
It mentioned, for example, that a speaker has something called Free Air Resonance. The dimensions of the optimal cabinet depend, in some way, on the Free Air Resonance. Celestion reports "resonant frequency" on the spec sheets on their website.
This website reviews the issues: Designing and Building a Speaker Box Example
So, my question is whether it makes sense to pick a speaker based on reviews and then install it in a random cabinet. Or vice versa. Doing so would mean that the spec(s) is not relevant to the cabinet design.
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The same driver will sound quite different in sealed, open, and vented cabinets. The total Q of the speaker and the free air resonance are the main determinants of performance by cabinet type - you have to match those parameters with the cabinet type to get the most from a given speaker, and some mismatches result in terrible sound from speakers that would sound great in the right cabinets. This post from another thread may help you understand it better: Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It does not. There are many many posts here and elsewhere about disappointing speaker swaps despite top quality speakers and cabinets. This is probably the main reason why.
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I had Deltalite, Celestion BN and Jensen Tornado and only Tornado stayed. I fig it with both my Quilter TB202 (in a 10” version) and a DIY Deluxe Reverb tube amp. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
To my ears and playing (jazz sounds and rock sounds) the others were darkish and dullish compared to the lively and open Tornado.
I have had harsh speakers and Tornado is far from them, but then: I’ll buy my speakers used, not new, so they are all probably been broken in.
And then: ears are different.
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That's typically how we do it. Is there some other way? :-) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
FWIW I love the CelestionBN in both open and closed back cabs.
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I use the BN12-300S in TOOB 12B bass cabs, which are fine for classic jazz guitar tone. Quilter uses it as well. However, bass speakers have a more linear frequency response than traditional guitar speakers. Again, ok for jazz but less so for overdriven sound. The Deltalite II is a great product, again mainly for bass, but with its cast aluminum basket it's oversize for the TOOB enclosure. I've shoehorned in a couple at the request of a world-touring pro bassist but won't do it again. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Fender uses/used the Jensen Tornado on their George Benson Twin Reverb model. Its design (total Q factor ranging from .52 to .7 depending on impedance) makes it suitable for all kinds of cabs. I would not look at this or other Thiele-Small parameters too slavishly, as most measurements are done at the speaker's resonant frequency only, and impedance varies a lot along the frequency range. Ultimately, speakers and cabs are made for human ears and should be judged by them as well.
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The Q of the speaker is only as specified when it is driven by an amp with a low output impedance. If the output impedance is high, as it might be with a tube amp then the speaker Q will be higher and the balance of a ported cabinet will be upset. The rise in Q is how a non feedback tube amp gets more bass out of an open back cabinet.
There is also a sort of internal feedback effect within the speaker where the voltage generated by the moving coil opposes the drive current. This reduces speaker distortion slightly. When the amp output impedance is high, this loop is broken and the speaker distortion rises. This happens mostly at low frequencies where the cone movement is large.
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“Ultimately, speakers and cabs are made for human ears and should be judged by them as well.”
Yep that’s what I was trying to say.
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Thanks for this explanation. It makes sense. What it comes down to is that the manufacturer presumably has the resources to match a speaker to a cab, but a typical guitarist does not. People write about a certain speaker being better than another, but the comparison requires an optimal cabinet for each -- and then, that cabinet would have to be an option for the purchaser, who probably already has the cabinet he's trying to fill. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
OTOH, the math/engineering doesn't matter if the player likes the sound.
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I have always been a bit indifferent about the design of the speaker cabinet. Some (too small) sound boxy, some (usually closed ones) sound boomy and some (usually open back) sound good.
But the design matters a lot. About six years ago I decided to move the amp parts of my Polytone Mini Brute IV combo to a smaller cabinet. The MB IV has 15" speaker and the combo had felt sometimes too big for my use. I studied the MB family a bit and decided to make a cabinet according the dimensions of a Polytone Teeny Brute which has 10" speaker. I made the cabinet and moved the amp but in the end t wasn't a success story. So I moved the amp back to MP IV enclosure.
It was closed back like the most of the Polytone line is. But then I decided to make the cab an open back system (to have a space for transporting the guitar cable in the back of the amp!). I moved in a Quilter TB202 head.
It was ok in theory .... but some how the sound was never 'there'. Changed the speaker some times, but it didn't help enough. Even the Celestion Gold 10" didn't make it. There was always some unexplainable distraction in the sound.
So last autumn I got bored in a piece of an "almost there" gear and decided to give it one more chance: I'll close the back again.
And voilá: it is not anymore "almost there", it is exactly there, it sounds perfect! Tommy Gumina had designed that 39 cm high, 34 cm wide and 26 cm deep closed enclosure gives good guitar sounds.
Now I stand corrected: the enclosure design means. And about Jensen Tornado: it works perfectly deliciously in this colsed back combo. In both polytoneish jazz sounds and in fenderish rock sounds.
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Another shout out for the Celestion BN12-300S. Got one on sale from Parts Express and converted my Quilter MP 12 to a 12HD at a much lower price. They say that they approach the even response and headroom of an EVM12, and as a long time user of those, I agree. Even on sale, still not cheap, but I can't imagine a more powerful even-toned 12" neo.
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Just to underline that the speaker is the most underrated link in the signal chain. It's also the one in which both cab manufacturers and speaker swappers become unduly thrifty. In mass production, every penny saved is thousands of pennies earned. But for a tone-hunter, what's 50 or 100 clams extra if it makes the critical difference? Many people can't tell an Epi from a Gibby in blind tests but are happy dish out $$$$ for the brand and resale value. Others buy new pedals like a kid in the candy store. At the same time, dealers don't even want to stock speakers because they occupy a lot of shelf space and don't move. Large speaker manufacturers are happy with the volumes they get from OEM business (e.g. much of Celestion's trading happens inside China) and don't spend too much effort on the retail market. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Speaker swapping is not the easiest thing to do on a typical combo/cab and the result may not always be an improvement. Opinions and tastes vary so much. What we are seeing today is more and more signal processing happening upstream of the power amp, i.e. in the pedalboard/preamp stages. To me this means that the power amp should be neutral and uncolored, as modern Class D amps are. Logically, the speaker should behave accordingly. OTOH, anything above 6 kHz is detrimental to the overdriven sound, limiting the role of FRFR speakers to the modeling amp/IR world. The BN12-300S is fairly neutral and linear and reaches 4 kHz, perfectly adequate for guitar use, if its crunch sound is satisfactory to you. (By contrast, the BN10-200X has a distinct bass speaker flavor and sounds nasal on guitar frequencies.)
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Thank you, very enlightening ! Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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Very nice! Originally Posted by Herbie
I
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So just an opinion but as stated before the Tornado is a good choice. But many of the Neos seem to lack in the bass frequencies, especially in open back use.
I really like the Celestion BN12300 but it lacks high end . It’s always a trade off and you need to see which works for you.
I really like WGS ET90 and WGS Blackhawk HP100 but you’ll have an extra 7 lbs or so to deal with unfortunately.
One more choice is DV Mark offers a 150 watt Neo option as well. I have one but haven’t gigged it much, so won’t weigh in just yet.
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Low Q and high free air resonant frequency are the culprits there. The 12" Tornado has a free air resonance at 72 Hz (too high) and a Qts of 0.52 (too low) to deliver loud, tight sound below 85-90 Hz in an open back cab. The Jensen Blackbird 40 has a total Q of 1.36, but its free air resonance is at 93 Hz. So it'll deliver much tighter bass in an open cab down to just above its FAR peak. But pushing the frequencies below 100 Hz to higher SPLs will sound flabby and could actually tear the cone suspension and/or voice coil because of the resonance peak and the low Q (which is an indicator of how well or poorly the speaker can mechanically control cone motion). Originally Posted by jads57
Bass speakers have FAR peaks at or even well below 50 Hz, so they'll peform better at much lower frequencies. But most also have low Qs and are perform best in cabs with ports tuned a bit above the FAR peak.
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With its 150W rating, the Jensen N12D is quite a beast, with an extended treble end. It's probably perfect for pedal steel and surf chime. Jensen people have told me it should be used in modeling amp / ir systems only; recent literature also mentions acoustic guitar amps. Celestion's Neo Copperback is a recent entry, with 250W power rating and 5.5 kHz top end. I've installed a few N12D's for people using them with modeling amps and have a Neo Copperback on the shelf but no verdict except it's sheer dynamite. Opinions among the Quilter tribe vary. Many say the speaker must be broken in for at least 30 hrs. That's a serious amount of air time for a non-professional player.
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I have the old Jensen NEO 12-100 in my (original) BDLX for quite some years already. Less weight and compared to the factory Eminence more balanced, more transparent, less boomy in the low, less shrill in the highs and a more neutral sound. It stays!
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Less boomy in the low - the OP probably wants more. The Tornado is a 2nd generation take and a very successful product. Deep basses are great when playing alone at home, but less so in a band setting or studio. Jazz guitar sound may well be dark and smoky, but the combination of a 12" speaker and neck humbucker easily leads to a muddy bottom end. In comping, that's the bassist's territory anyway. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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Honestly I'm happy with the stock speaker's sound on the Blues Deluxe Reissue. Its really just the weight of the amp that I want changed. I find myself not gigging with the Blues Deluxe Reissue due to its weight; even though I prefer its sound over my other, more portable amp (an old ZT lunchbox). Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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