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....Yes I am stalling........I'm trying to take the mystery / fear factor out of TR adjustments......
I've been told to try loosening the tr -- so now the dumb questions --
1. Is ' counterclockwise ' (( Gib. L-7 )) to the left / treble side as you look down the fb from the nut ?
2. Knowing we're winter w/ dry indoor heat and no humidifier this year, can I assume this is likely humidity-only, seeing as how I just got a setup in Fall ??
3. And without a humidifier, will all 'winter buzzes' likely be a tr that needs loosening - meaning adjustment to treble side ?
4. Is there a bare minimum nut turn to try - -1/4 or 1/2 turn ?
I have watched more than a few of the YT vids - - maybe this will make me try it...
TIA !!
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02-20-2022 01:12 PM
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Righty tighty lefty loosey. Hold the low E string down at the first fret and 12th fret at the same time. Look at the string in the light at the middle of the fretboard. There should be a small amount of space showing between the string and the fret. Loosen for more space, tighten for less. Start with a half turn. Check again. Don't be afraid. It's something that all players should get comfortable with.
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First question is if your truss rods needs adjusting? You need to know the relief in the neck. Make a straight line with the string using either the d or g string fretting it at the first fret and then at the fret that joins the body either 14 or 15 usually. Looking at the 7th and 8th fret does it show any relief and how much? If the neck if the relief is fine than possible something else is happening. Remember that one accurate measurement with the proper tools is worth 1000 guesses.
Players can adjust there truss rods but they should really have and understanding of what they can and cannot do and how they work. Otherwise take it to someone who does. I never adjust the truss rod to increase the tension of the neck to take out too much relief, with the strings at full tension. Many luthiers disagree with me on this and some agree, but I have seen truss rods break it can happen. Once a truss rod is set it should rarely ever need adjusting. I have a number of guitars and have not adjusted them in many years. I think the whole seasonal thing is a bit over done in guitar set ups. Generally flattops require a bit more fuss than archtop. The one seasonal change I notice is the action can sometimes change a little. It tends to go a bit down in the winter as it is drier inside with home heating in 4 season areas. In the summer it sometimes goes up just a bit as expansion happens. It is not much less than 1/64 of an inch.
I see more of a season thing simply the action on the guitar not the truss rod need adjusting. Also at least on archtops with the action is so easily adjusting I do that depending sometimes on my playing. If I have been playing a lot and my hand gets warmed up and stronger I sometime raise the action just a bit. Likewise I sometimes lower it if I simply do not seem to have the strength in my hands for whatever reason. On any given day we play muscles and reflexes are not the same exactly. I adjust accordingly. The great benefit of archtop guitars. Try that on your flattop.
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I live in Minnesota so wide ranging climate- very dry in the winter, often very humid in summer. Like the Deacon, on most of my guitars the truss rod is never touched. I've had my Ibanez GB10 for 36 years and the truss rod has been adjusted once, in 1987. My carved archtop, I had a new nut put in to spread out the strings in 2008, hasn't been adjusted since. I do adjust the action up and down seasonally- up when there start to be some buzzes in the winter and down when the action gets a bit stiff in the summer. I keep them at 4/64".
My Strat seems to need some actual trussrod tweaks seasonally, but it has an unfinished roasted maple neck. That one has a Gotoh trussrod with the little adjuster screw on the side of the heel. My Teles have not needed trussrod adjustments since being set up for the strings I am using. My flattop gets buzzy in winter, I would need to swap out the bridge saddle and that's too much of a pain.
IMHO the only reason to adjust the trussrod is for getting relief in the neck. Watch the Stewart Macdonald videos on YouTube for how to check this and make the adjustment. Solid information. If the problem is seasonal buzzes, odds are the action has gotten a smidge low as the wood has dried out a bit during the winter. Raising the bridge rather than tweaking the trussrod usually fixes that.
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If you tighten the truss rod thus reducing relief in the neck and then get fret buzz above the 12th fret, raise the bridge a tad.
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....Thanks for the responses....
It's the lightest 17 in. archtop I own which makes it great for practice, but it's just 'fussy' and likes attention......( a blonde ) : )....
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I generally start with however much turn the D string allows. I don't usually turn the nut more than the amount posssible between the D and G strings. I check the relief, and if more turn is necessary I take another bite with the wrench and turn a little. A full half turn is usually way too much. If the truss rod has been loosened for shipping, then a lot of adjustment may be needed, but IME a few degrees of turn is usually enough. I don't quite agree with Mark about adjusting with the strings at tension. You have no way of knowing how much to turn the nut if there is no string tension. Truss rods can break, and the threads can strip, but with an undamaged, functioning truss rod a few degrees of turn won't harm it. If the nut is rusted to the threads, yes you have a problem whether or not the strings are tight. I don't like relief, and want the neck perfectly straight, but that does require adjustments more often. If you have a lot of relief, you probably won't ever need to make an adjustment. The problem with excessive relief is that you have to set the action rather high at the 12th fret to clear the upper frets without buzzing when fretting higher. The straighter the neck, the lower you can set the bridge. But if you get even a little backbow, you have problems, buzzing all over, but mostly at the lower frets. The process of finding how much relief you have has been pretty well explained. I would loosen the truss rod only if there is no relief at all, or backbow. I don't usually actually measure the relief, I just get the neck close to straight, with enough relief so the string pings along its length when tapped when fretted at the first and 14th (usually) frets. But I freely acknowledge that many prefer more relief than I do. In any case, check what you have before you start cranking on the truss rod nut. Know how much adjustment you need to make, and go slowly. It can take some time before the neck fully adjusts to the adjustment, so I like to get somewhere close, then play for awhile, maybe even a day or two, and see how it goes, then adjust again if necessary. Truss rod adjustment is not an emergency that has to be finished immediately. Take your time.
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........I'm also wondering - -assuming a correct set-up before winter, and then getting buzzing - -assuming the normal winter lack of humidity - -wouldn't the cause always be same and the correction /adjustment always be the same as well?
Meaning, if it's dry, the neck will always return to straight and need the bow restored again by loosening the tr ?
Thx again.
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It is wood and things are variable so anything can happen. It is not always with guitars the 2+2=4. Running a/c can cause a change if the summer and evening moving to a different room. Some guitars are more stable than others too and simply to do not move much if at all. My 49 D'angelico in the almost 40 years I have had it has never had the truss rod adjusted. My guess it is has not possible ever been adjust at least since the 1960's. The action on it changes very little if at all over the period of year, minute amounts. Despite this stability the guitar does not hold being in tune between playing times any better than any other guitar I have. Generally I need to tweak it very little to be in tune between individual days of playing it. However I did notice when winter set in good in Central Illinois in second week of January the guitar went pretty flat more so than most. It seem to take about a week for the guitar to again become stable in staying completely in tune.
Fret buzzing can come along these same lines of fluctuations. Measure and tell us what you action is at the 12th fret that will tell me much to begin with.
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What frets do you find the buzzing happening? Do the open strings ring normally? These answers might help you diagnose what needs to be done.
Originally Posted by Dennis D
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Originally Posted by skiboyny
What I found, eyesight being what it is :
1. I used a pick holding low E on the first fret and fretted the 12th fret and there's ( almost ) no relief - - the string rests on the frets throughout...eyeballing down the neck it looks dead straight .....
2. I don't have feeler gauges but the height of low E at the 12th may be 3/32 - -tops.....it's about the thickness of a stainless steel pocket ruler I used.....it measured maybe 2/32
3. Open D will buzz if hit hard but mostly strings 3 & 4 are buzzing top to bottom.......
Thanks again - again .......
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Raise the bridge saddle just a little. It doesn't have the proper radius, as is common. It's too flat, probably around a 15" radius and your fretboard is probably 12". That causes buzzing of the D and G strings all the way up and down, and the quick and easy fix is to just raise the bridge saddle until the buzz on them goes away. If you want, you can increase the radius, either by just deepening the saddle slots for the outer strings proportionally, or by re-radiusing the entire saddle, depending on what type you have. TOM bridges don't (easily) re-radius other than by filing the slots, wooden saddles can be sanded to shape.
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? I know exactly what you mean about fussiness. I have several like that - all L7s. And neither one a blonde. Like yours, I suspect, mine are survivors but have their idiosyncacies. Wonderfully resonant and light guitars make them ideal for practicing. I suspect that the culprit here is the humidity. Both of mine developed cracks this year, despite humidified cases.
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Sorry to hear about the cracks on yours......But this has forced me to at least get familiar with these adjustments.....Anything other than string changes has always been Greek to me but ok now I hope to learn how to make these adjustments...... Originally Posted by FredH
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Sounds like it's set up with very low action and very little relief. If as you said it was working well for you after set-up, I'd loosen the truss just a 1/4 turn. See where that puts you. Don't be afraid it isn't anything that can't be undone. Originally Posted by Dennis D
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Thanks.....Since day one I've always been begging /bugging / pleading with the luthier to get it ' down more ', 'but leave me some tension '.....this one has the long scale with lesser Gibson neck angle, doesn't like 13's, and sometimes stays where he puts it and sometimes doesn't.......( ask me how I know )...: ) Originally Posted by skiboyny
........ok tomorrow I give that a try......thanks again.....
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This is a case where I might agree it is a truss rod adjustment. If the neck is dead straight as you mentioned then yes a small turn of the truss rod left to loosen. Not much I might be inclined to say 1/8 of a turn. You can do this with full tension on the strings as you are not working against the force of strings. Let is settle a bit strum it hard and then recheck the relief just like you did. A hair of daylight under the frets will tell you that it worked, assuming it did. I might also as one suggested raise the bridge on the bass side ever so slightly. You can do this in increments to see what happens. Possible you may need to only a small amount of relief in the neck and that does it. Originally Posted by skiboyny
Finally go to the local hardware store, box store and buy a good quality set of rulers. You need a small machinist metal one ( only get metals ones) that shows measurement to 1/64 and it will be probably 6 inches total. This you can use to measure action accurately. Then also buy a 24 inch quality metal ruler that can work as a straightedge. This you can set on top of the frets on the fingerboard and see the leveling of the frets. It is not exactly the same as the level of the fingerboard but close enough for you. This is be must have for serious guitarist and they have many other uses besides guitars.
I repair bikes and believe me many of my guitar tools work for bikes. My cable cutter for bikes makes easy work of guitar strings too. I use the small rulers as side gauges to build wheels on a truing stand. Tools are you friend.
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Thanks DM.....Now it makes sense. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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The latest - -
I saw this tip, so -- I marked a line through the top of the tr nut and ended it at '12:00' on the inside neck, before I made any adjustments........I gave it 1/4 turn to the left, then 1/2 then a full turn and no increase in neck relief, after sighting down the neck after each turn......fwiw I found another black magic marker after one of my turns.....
....the nut was tight / snug after the first turn but after the second it now can be loosened by hand....??.....and it is un-'threading', and the nut will come off the rod, which stays as fastened and isn't turning when the nut's turned...... there's probably 1/8 - 1/4 in. of threads visible before I did anything and now the rod end is not visible, so it is 'unscrewing'...........I didn't try to tighten the nut to see if the neck would respond and go over level....and not real sure I wanted to try that.....
........are these tr loosening adjustment results usually immediate ??.....could this tr be as loosened as it can be ?.......
....thanks for any ideas and explanations.....
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I would simply snug the nut back on the truss rod not tight but enough to just put pressure on the rod. Sometimes it can take bit for truss rods to respond especially if it is an older Gibson L7. Yes is is possible the truss rod does not really work perfectly for sure and yes it can take time. I would simply play the guitar for a day and see what happens. If the neck as not moved at all given the truss rod nut is completely loose it can be helped with a jig I use for truss rod adjustments, usually tighten them but can be used to loosen. A large clamp and two blocks of wood on the back side of neck with a longer piece of sturdy wood between them. Then use clamp and lightly tighten to give pressure on neck to bow forward. This usually works you just don't want to put huge torque on the neck, enough to push it from being flat.
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It may take time for the adjustment to show up. You are verifying by the same method holding the E string down at the first fret also at 12 or even beyond, not just sighting down the neck? What strings do you use? No difference in playability? If it doesn't respond in a day or 2 you could change strings to a string with more tension. Not ideal if your married to whatever it is your using but it would work.
Originally Posted by Dennis D
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I use Chromes - 12's.....Yes I raised the bridge a little and that helped so I'll give it a day or two......But I can see where there's only so much you can release the nut, especially if the nut is ' hanging by a thread' and the neck is dead straight...... Originally Posted by skiboyny
Anyway thanks......
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So the chromes are a pretty high tension string. You could go up in gauge but you mentioned you don't like 13s. So you will have to compromise. The rest will have to be done with string height. If your measurement is at all correct, it is very low. Originally Posted by Dennis D
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Hi Dennis,
These are good questions and you've got some helpful replies already. People don't necessarily agree on some things, because guitars and players are different, having different habits and residing in different climate zones.
I still think we should be able to establish some universal dos and dont's:
"I'm trying to take the mystery / fear factor out of TR adjustments"
Great, the truss rod is there for a reason and a player must know how to use it. It's like guitar tuning, -do you tune the guitar yourself or do you have someone doing it for you? We're not supposed to tune the truss rod every day, more like a couple of times a year. Exactly how often depends...
"-Counterclockwise "?
Most people know how to open a water tap and loosen a screw (unless they're from France, where things are done backwards). Some truss rods are adjusted at the headstock, others at the heel. "Rigthy tighty lefty loosey" is a matter of perspective; You are supposed to look at the nut top down....(remember that "nut" is a word with different interpretations)...Turn a tuner key too far and the string eventually breaks....Truss rods strip and snap unless you use common sense.
"-Can I assume this is likely humidity only? will all 'winter buzzes' likely be a truss rod that needs loosening? Wouldn't the cause always be same and the correction /adjustment always be the same as well"?
No, it's not humidity only and not all winter-buzzes are the same. A setup is never perpetual; string tension, playing and storage will make the equilibrium shift in ways that may or may not be predictable. Some people accept some degree of movement/setup degeneration, others don't. The more picky you are, the more often you're likely to tweak the truss rod. However, and this is important; A shift in body top compression is likely to affect neck relief. This means, that sometimes you're better off adjusting the bridge height and relief will follow. Relief and string height are dependent parameters. You can't change one without affecting the other.
"Is there a bare minimum nut turn to try -1/4 or 1/2 turn" ?
Sometimes, depending on the individual neck and truss rod design, 15 degrees or 1/24 turn (!) is the difference between a great guitar and an ordinary guitar.
90 degrees or 1/4 turn is a lot on a Gibson truss rod. It's the difference between an ordinary guitar and a poor setup.
180 degrees or 1/2 turn is a Gibson neck out of whack. You'll have to reset the truss rod by loosening the strings and set the neck straight using a straight edge.
"Dead straight neck"?
This is a most unfortunate idiom popularized on guitar forums. "Dead straight" have different meanings to different people. One man's "dead straight" is another man's "business card". If you really mean zero relief; -are you talking about the neck with or without string tension? A neck with zero relief under string tension get back bow when strings are loosened. This is likely to affect your general approach, fighting setup instability.
"Are these truss rod loosening adjustment results usually immediate" ?
No. The guitar compresses and de-compresses, bends, bows and flexes under tension, strain, stress and torque. Some deformation is reversible, some is irreversible. Some deformation is elastic and some is plastic.
Strings tuned to pitch will always induce some relief in a neck that was dead straight before tension. The heavier the gauge, the more the neck will bow forward. And the higher the bridge, the more the neck will bow forward. Some movement is immediate, some is gradual.
There are things that can be done to re-enforce the stability of a setup;
- Stretch strings, tune up
- Massage the neck, finalize neck adjustment by tightening (when loosening the truss rod, loosen some more then tighten)
- Stabilize the bridge (this is a novel I'll write another day)
You'll have to be patient and let the guitar rest. You have to accept that the setup procedure is an iterative process. Substantial adjustments (like 1/2 turn of a truss rod nut) typically means that the guitar needs several days to find its new equilibrium. (That's why your bona fide tech needs a few days before you can pick up the guitar).
When you pay a tech, he will make his best efforts to perform a set up that will last until the guitar is due for string replacement next time....the more often you visit him, the better your guitar will perform. If you see him once a year, he will recommend that you accept sufficient overall string height for the setup to survive (and then it'll probably last for years).
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...Thanks JC, that's a lot of good information. And many thanks to DM SkyB and the other knowledgeable respondents.
I have learned a lot since digging into this. This '50's L-7 has Gibson's skinny frets, and I may rightly or wrongly have equated them with fussy set-up issues and less adjustment stability....FWIW it's also had a recent fret level......
But now I can at least understand some of the principles involved and the problems that arise, some of which aren't easy fixes.
The dead straight neck - - w/little or no relief - -is still there - - with strings tuned to pitch, and the tr nut -at least under some tension - turned 1/4 to the left...It seems that if loosened any further, there just isn't any ' hold ' .....It probably has 1/3 - 1/2 a turn while it'll still holds the it just goes loose and unscrews...........
So I raised the bridge 'til most of the buzzing has stopped although the D & G strings will buzz a little at times......So it's more than playable, and if it eventually gets some relief, that can't hurt.
Thanks again to all !!
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