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I know its possible. George Benson gets a terrific tone in this video (skip to 1 min 10 seconds to hear him). I'm using Probuckers, which I'd imagine are very similar to whatever pickups Benson has here.
Originally i had roundwound 10s on my Les Paul...switched to round wound 11s. Finally, I made the switch to flat wound 11s which got me MUCH closer to the tone I want. The Low E and A sound absolutely wonderful and rich and woody. But the unwound steel strings (High E and B) still sound absolutely terrible in my opinion. I'm using D'addario ECG24s.
Are there flat wound string sets one can get that have wound high E and B strings? If not, do people think that switching to a thicker gauge will help? I actually feel the 11s are looser than I’d like anyway. I want more tension.
Also, I’m aware that when you change more than one gauge in string size, you often need to file the nut to fit them properly. But I think the nut on my guitar is already filed a bit too wide for the .11s I have on it. When I look at pics of other guitars the string seem to sit higher in the nut slots. Mine are all quite deep in there. Do people think I could put .12s or even .13s on here without having to file the nut?
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Thanks for any advice.
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02-19-2022 08:43 AM
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I'd get a set of Thomastik strings at first, they are more fun.
Jazz Swing #12 is a good start.
a good amp and the correct amp settings go a long way ...
if the nut slots are to narrow, widen them with a little piece of emery paper, fine grit, folded.
if the slots are a little wide and deep, forget about it, as long as you have no tuning issues etc.
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A Les Paul works fine for jazz. Its primary problem is that it weighs almost a ton. Other than that, it works fine for jazz. My son had one, which he gave to my son-in-law, and I used it for a year or two in between. I put .012 Chromes on it, and it sounded fine with them. The SIL took it to New Orleans, and converted a couple of musicians there to flatwound strings. For jazz playing, I prefer to roll off the treble a little or a lot, depending on the amp, and roll it off at the amp, rather than at the guitar. The amp makes a big difference, so some require reducing the treble more than others. I don't recall which amp you're using, but some just cannot give an acceptable sound to me, regardless of the guitar, strings, or anything else. Some amps just sound bad to me. In particular, a scooped Fender tone is something I avoid. There needs to be adequate mids, but not overpowering. I can make a Fender work, but I have to work at it. My DV Mark amps, OTOH, sound great just set flat or very near, perhaps with a slight reduction of treble on the guitar, but never very much, sometimes with a slight reduction of the bass at the amp, depending on the guitar. IMO the amp is a critical part of the signal chain. Unfortunately, it's an expensive part of it, so experimenting is not as cheap as changing strings or picks. Which reminds me, the choice of pick has a lot to do with the final sound of a guitar. I like Blue Chips, but there are many acceptable ones that are cheaper. Thicker is better, up to a point. The Dunlop John Petrucci pick is one I like a lot, but there are many, and they all have their proponents. You don't usually have to take out a bank loan by mortgaging your house to try several types.
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Yes, I have no doubt that changing my amp (a Roland Cube) would do more to get the tone I want than a string change. In my opinion the Cube is a very neutral amp. Very true to a guitar's actual tone. And unfortunately, in my opinion, the Les Paul has a very ugly, metallic tone when not modified in any way by an amp (not very nice played through a PA or flat studio monitors, for example). I'm just trying everything I can that doesn't cost a lot of money first.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
I CAN get the high, ugly, metallic strings to sound descent by rolling off a considerable amount of treble. But then the beautiful nuance in the bassy strings gets lost. I've experimented with lowering the pickups on the high end as well, to make those stings a bit quieter. Helps a little.
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Lots of things can change the tone you produce. Experimenting with the pickup placement is free and reversible, so that should always be an early choice. Experimenting with different picks gives great bang for the buck. Changing amp settings is also free and reversible. Changing amps and guitars can be effective, but it's expensive. I admit I've done more of that than my wife likes, though. The quest for the perfect sound and feel is never-ending, perhaps impossible to achieve. At some point one has to just accept what one has and play. I'm not quite there yet, even though my 75th birthday is looming.
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That clip with Benson is from 1964, so he’s playing a ‘50s or early ‘60s Les Paul which might be the most coveted and expensive guitars on the planet. So he’s off to a good start. Second, he’s playing a tube amp, which could sound warmer and more forgiving. Third, well, he’s George Benson.
Many (certainly not all) of the ‘70s, ‘80s or ‘90s LP’s can sound muddy or booming on the neck pickup. These days Gibson is making very nice LP’s again.
There’s a separate discussion here on how to get the unwound strings to sound good with tons of good ideas in it.
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Benson is great, and that tone is mainly coming from his hand. If you want that tone from a Les Paul, you will need his hand.
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That can’t be answered solely on the basis of slot depth. The depth of the slot is only one dimension - the width and contours are also critical. Depth determines the action at the first fret and affects the interplay between relief and action from the second fret up. How far up depends on how the guitar is built. There are many opinions about nut prep. Here’s mine. Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico
The fret plane over the top will move with the rest of the board if you shim a bolt-on neck. But a set neck fixes the board above the top, so you have to plane the board (or reset the neck, unless it’s a neck-through) to change the fret plane. So with a set neck, a deeper nut slot can seriously affect the action at the highest frets. The quick & dirty fix used by many is a higher bridge to avoid buzzing or fretting out there - but that also increases the action.
The slot shape is discussed in dozens of articles, as is width. What matters is that the slot is rounded to be concentric with the string, just enough larger in radius to permit free movement of the string through it, as deep as the radius of the string, and shaped so that the string rests firmly on the front of the slot and has enough divergence toward the headstock for the string to be aimed at its tuning post without sharp angulation. Viewed from above, nut slots should be shaped like a tiny trumpet bell that faces the headstock. Viewed from the side, the floor of the slot should have the same slight curved slope in the same direction, so that the scale length starts at the front face of the nut.
If the slots are so deep that much more than half of the string is within it, the top of the nut should be reduced until the string sits halfway in it. But when setting up a new nut, I trim its bottom so that it’s just tall enough to give me the desired string height in a slot that’s equal in depth to the radius of the string. You know the important distances first - height of the first fret, desired action above it, and string gauge. Leaving an extra few thousandths in nut height gives you a little room for error, and you can finish trimming the nut once you’ve set everything up - frets planed and dressed, truss rod adjusted, bridge height set, nut finished etc.
When going up in gauge, run the string you want to use back and forth through the slot with your fingers. If it binds at all (assuming the slot is properly smooth), the slot needs to be wider. You only need a few thousandths of an inch of clearance, and many guitars come from the factory with several thou around the stock strings. Too much clearance can cause buzzing, ghost resonances, and even minor intonation problems if the slot is not perfectly parallel to the board center and perpendicular to the frets.
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^^ And the brain that operates it. George probably isn't giving up either of those.
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Not to mention eleventy zillion hours of practice and live performance! Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Another often suggested item is lower the pup heights: particularly the neck.
I still don’t sound like GB, but I think I sound better.
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Lots of us increase the qauge of the top 2 strings to get a 'better' tone. I typically use a set of 12's with wound G and change out E and B for a 13 and a 17.
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IMO most pups are run too high, in the search for a hotter output, which can result in magnetic drag, hence less sustain and in extreme cases, faulty pitch. I run mine fairly low and simply turn the amp up a bit. I think I get better note separation, clearer chords, and better sustain.* Originally Posted by Alder Statesman
* I know, the whole concept of "sustain" seems silly in the context of streams of eight-notes at 187 BPM, but there it is. I think it has more to do with postponing harmonic loss in the few held (sustained) notes. It's all about the decay, in my book.
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I've had nice results with a wooden saddle in place of any of the metal bridge thingies.
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Woody: are you saying you use a wood saddle on a Les Paul? Interesting idea. I've never had one on a solid body. Is it something that people do?
I ask because some day I think I'll own a LP again, and if this is a thing I'd like to know about it!
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Plug it into a Polytone.
Keep in mind that was recorded to tape, that helps.
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You bet! Tape saturation can be deee-licious! Originally Posted by vintagelove
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My experience is very close to this. My problem is usually in the upper register of the high E string. I want a warm, thick tone that rings clearly and doesn't fizz. A lot of gear won't get me there. Originally Posted by sgosnell
The DV LJ seems to be voiced in a way that doesn't reproduce any fizz or tinniness. I use a Golden Gate Mandolin pick which has a soft sound. Replacing the string often helps -- the strings get kinked at each fret and I figure that can't help the sound.
I have not found that string gauge helps that much. I play an 11.
And, trying every combination of pickup and polepiece height makes for a pleasant evening.
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Or a rainy afternoon...
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how hard are you grabbing to put kinks in the string? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I think adding a gauge or two higher just for the top two strings helps.
Compressors are great too for getting that thunky, naturally compressed sound you hear from hollows.
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You don't say what kind of LP you are using. I ditched my Custom (ebony fingerboard) for a Deluxe (rosewood fingerboard) because the clean tone of the Custom was too thin (and, yeah it weighed a ton!)
IDK what vintage Cube you have, but the old orange ones actually are capable of producing quite a good jazz tone. You might consider looking into a good tube amp - not that I want to kick that hornet's nest! Anyone who want to debate tube vs. SS, please do it on one of the zillion threads already dedicated to that; let's not derail this one! But maybe head down to the local music store and try out some tube amps just for fun.
All that aside, tone comes from the fingers... if you have never taken lessons from someone whose tone you like, you might consider that option. One's conception of tone is the start - gear and mechanical technique are but tools to express that conception.
$0.02,
SJ
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Benson was using a Fender Bassman amp on that 1964 gig with Jack McDuff. (I like the first few seconds where Benson tunes to McDuff's organ).
The amp and Benson's fingers did more for his sweet jazz tone than the Les Paul or its strings.
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I notice that when I remove them, if I run my finger along the loose string, I can feel the kinks. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
how hard are you grabbing to put kinks in the string?
I think I have a rather heavy touch.
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The depth of the slot in the nut is itself irrelevant. What's germane is the height of the bottom of the string above the fingerboard and frets. The depth of the slot in the nut is dependent on the height of the nut blank, which has no relation to where the fingerboard is. When someone cuts nut string slots to fit a particular guitar, they have to be concerned with where the bottom of the slot is, not where the top of the nut is (among other criteria, of course). Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico
Why are you concerned about filing the nut? It's a common procedure, and nuts are easily replaceable. Perhaps you're worried about filing the nut yourself - if so, have a skilled guitar tech replace and fit the nut for you.
I don't recall ever having seen wound B or treble E strings. But from my own experience, in general heavier strings sound better, or more accurately, sound more like I want to hear. They seem to have more body or fullness to them, while thinner strings are more tinny sounding.
You didn't ask about this, but I've found that I strongly prefer wound G strings. I don't like to play unwound Gs much at all.
Different brands of strings seem to have different tensions. Sometimes you can find manufacturers' information on string tension on their websites. For example, d'Addario presents its string tension information in a document at https://www.daddario.com/globalasset...hart_13934.pdf .
Whatever strings you use, they'll work better if your nut is cut properly for them.
And by the way, the guage of your e' string is 0.011 inches, not 0.11 inches.
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