Getting A Great Woody Tone on a Les Paul

[JCat]

I don't mind a LP for Jazz;

Buckers, regular nickel round wounds 10-46, heavy pick or fingers.
Neck PU adjusted low, guitar volume rolled back > tube amp, mid focused setting > vintage alnico speaker (for the "woody" tone).

Much like people have been doing it since the '50s. The tone is not much different than that of a stop tail 335, universally accepted for jazz application (because it got f-holes).

I use a regular adjustable ToM bridge with brass saddles for all-round purpose but wouldn't mind nylon saddles should this have been a dedicated jazz guitar. (Can't intonate a wooden bridge on a guitar with fixed bridge posts).

My LPs are not dedicated for jazz exclusively, (none of my guitars are dedicated for anything exclusively), but my preferred Jazz guitar got a Trapeze tailpiece and a floating wooden bridge. (so it's not an LP). I don't mind flat wounds on a guitar with a wooden bridge, but prefer round wounds with humbuckers. In any case a wound G string is most important when using a wooden bridge.

Enjoy your LP for jazz and pay attention to amplification.

Good luck

[VanEpsInDeChirico]

Just throwing it out there for anyone who reads this thread because I found it surprising:

I was looking into ordering a set of Thomastik 12s just now and noticed the string gauges are:

12 - 16 - 20 - 27 - 37- 50

Whereas the D’Addario 11s are:
11 - 15 - 22 -30 - 40 - 50

So even though you get an extra mm on both the high E and B strings with Thomastik 12s, the D’Addario 11s offer 6mm MORE string size overall.

In fact, even the Thomastik 13s have narrower G-D- & A strings than the mere D'Addario 11s.

[Woody Sound]

Woody: are you saying you use a wood saddle on a Les Paul? Interesting idea. I've never had one on a solid body. Is it something that people do?

I ask because some day I think I'll own a LP again, and if this is a thing I'd like to know about it!

Absolutely. Just get a saddle with holes that line up with the tune-o-matic posts, and drop it down onto the wheels. I've done it on a 335 and a D'A semi.

[Eck]

Woody: are you saying you use a wood saddle on a Les Paul? Interesting idea. I've never had one on a solid body. Is it something that people do?

I ask because some day I think I'll own a LP again, and if this is a thing I'd like to know about it!

May I suggest you look at the es les paul. Semi hollow without f holes.
Edit: with f holes and actually quite gorgeous

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[VanEpsInDeChirico]

IMO most pups are run too high, in the search for a hotter output

Absolutely, I now keep the cover on my neck pick up abut level with the pick up ring rather than the insane height the factories tend to set them at and not only are my notes clearer and more separated as you say, but the pick attack has a nice strong sound and I get richer harmonics.

[dconeill]

... Thomastik 12s ... string gauges are:

12 - 16 - 20 - 27 - 37- 50

Whereas the D’Addario 11s are:
11 - 15 - 22 -30 - 40 - 50

So even though you get an extra mm on both the high E and B strings with Thomastik 12s, ...

These cited dimensions from d'Addario and Tomastik are in thousandths of an inch, not millimeters.
So they're really 0.012", 0.016", 0.020", and so on. One-one thousandth of an inch is 0.0254 mm. You don't get "an extra mm with Thomastik", you get an extra 0.0254 mm.

Every manufacturer of strings uses its own collection of string gauges, and there's no standardization. "12s" from one manufacturer don't necessarily contain the same gauges as another manufacturer's set of "12s", except that the treble E string in a set of "12s" in the USA is 0.012". Some sets have a wound G, but most don't.

I don't know how strings are labelled in the metrically-sensible rest of the world - Amazon India shows English measure used to specify guitar string gauges for d'Addario strings.

[VanEpsInDeChirico]

Every manufacturer of strings uses its own collection of string gauges, and there's no standardization. "12s" from one manufacturer don't necessarily contain the same gauges as another manufacturer's set of "12s".

The only reason I mention it at all is because I think many people assume (as I did until today) that 12 or 13 gauge strings are overall going to be a thicker set of strings than a set of 11s. But this is not necassarily the case.

[dconeill]

The only reason I mention it at all is because I think many people assume (as I did until today) that 12 or 13 gauge strings are overall going to be a thicker set of strings than a set of 11s. But this is not necassarily the case.

OK. I often find myself surprised by what many people are said to assume. I am surprised by my having gotten this old and still finding myself surprised.

[Peter C]

There actually is a kind of industry standard 12 gauge string set consisting of 12,16,24,32,42,52. Thomastik's indications are that their strings have a proportionately higher tension for a given gauge, but personally I've had to raise the bridge due to string slap on the fretboard.

As mentioned in other posts, it's common practice to swap the 1st and/or 2nd strings for a higher gauge, so you'd end up with, say, 12-50 or 13-52 (or 14-56 for the crazies).

Nothing wrong with Roland Cubes, IME, especially the JC setting.

[sgosnell]

If you look carefully at the tensions provided by TI and D'A, you will notice that the TI sets have balanced tension, or very close to it. D'A and most other manufacturers provide sets with the tension varying rather widely, with the D and G generally being of much higher tension than the others, and the A and b strings somewhat higher than the E and e. I don't know why this is, other than tradition. You can find some sets from other manufacturers with more balanced tensions if you search carefully. The TI sets have diameters very different from most other sets, but they select by tension, not diameter. Personally, I like having balanced tension strings, but they're hard to find from anyone other than TI.

If I make a big string change, whether brand or set size, I first adjust the truss rod to get the neck relief set properly, because the total tension is likely to be different. I don't adjust the bridge until I know the relief is what I want it to be. I want almost no relief, but others will disagree. Just as they will disagree about the best strings and the best guitar players of all time.

[Hammertone]

Every manufacturer of strings uses its own collection of string gauges, and there's no standardization. "12s" from one manufacturer don't necessarily contain the same gauges as another manufacturer's set of "12s", except that the treble E string in a set of "12s" in the USA is 0.012". Some sets have a wound G, but most don't.

The only reason I mention it at all is because I think many people assume (as I did until today) that 12 or 13 gauge strings are overall going to be a thicker set of strings than a set of 11s. But this is not necassarily the case.

OK. I often find myself surprised by what many people are said to assume. I am surprised by my having gotten this old and still finding myself surprised.

Another way to spend a rainy afternoon is to take string gauge measurements with a good micrometer. I was surprised that almost all the string gauges listed on string packs are ... not accurate.

[JCat]

with the D and G generally being of much higher tension than the others, and the A and b strings somewhat higher than the E and e. I don't know why this is

I think this is to mitigate neck twist.

When high E and B are replaced with higher gauge strings, there will be more relief on the treble side of the neck. People usually prefer it the other way around, i.e more relief on the bass side ("common practice"). But, as not all necks are the same, sometimes an unbalanced string set could compensate a problem neck.

[whiskey02]

There actually is a kind of industry standard 12 gauge string set consisting of 12,16,24,32,42,52. Thomastik's indications are that their strings have a proportionately higher tension for a given gauge, but personally I've had to raise the bridge due to string slap on the fretboard.

As mentioned in other posts, it's common practice to swap the 1st and/or 2nd strings for a higher gauge, so you'd end up with, say, 12-50 or 13-52 (or 14-56 for the crazies).

Nothing wrong with Roland Cubes, IME, especially the JC setting.

I believe you're mistaken, TI's have less tension for given gauge. They use a round core which and most of the strings in any set, .11, .12 are thinner that other string brands.

To the OP:
What pick are you using? I ask because you mention not being happy with the top b and e. I have just recently discovered that a good old fashioned celluloid pick sweetened the tone of those plain strings better than any other pick material. I've tried and used multiple picks, most frequently Ultex which sound very similar to celluloid except for those top strings. It'll cost you 35 cents try hear for yourself.

[VanEpsInDeChirico]

What pick are you using? I ask because you mention not being happy with the top b and e. I have just recently discovered that a good old fashioned celluloid pick sweetened the tone of those plain strings better than any other pick material.

I used Dunlop Jazztone 204s mostly, and 207s sometimes.

I haven't thought much about trying different pick materials. I used celluloid picks in my teenage rock and roll days but haven't tried them in a long time. Will check them out, thanks.

[bluejaybill]

I used Dunlop Jazztone 204s mostly, and 207s sometimes.

I haven't thought much about trying different pick materials. I used celluloid picks in my teenage rock and roll days but haven't tried them in a long time. Will check them out, thanks.

I recently found some heavy picks that I used to buy when I lived in NYC 40 years ago, Manny's branded teardrops. They sound fantastic. But none of the more recent celluloids sounds that good, so I did a deep dive and found out that the materials used in celluloid have changed quite a bit since then. It is very flammable, and only made in China now, I believe the last Italian factory closed a few years ago.

I found this out from a vintage pick collector- yes, there are actually such people. I also found out that my vintage Manny's picks are worth some money to a collector! But Im holding on to them.

I find that Blue Chip picks give me a nice full sound on all strings, with thicker ones sounding fuller up to a point. Just don't lose them!

[zcostilla]

Lots of us increase the qauge of the top 2 strings to get a 'better' tone. I typically use a set of 12's with wound G and change out E and B for a 13 and a 17.

I do this with almost every set. I put 0.010 & 0.013 e & B strings on my pure nickel set of 9s, and I use 0.12 and 0.15 plain strings on my 11s set for my 0-15. I think it not only balances out the tone, but it lets me use less pressure on the lower strings, so I get less hand fatigue when chording and they bend easier when riffing or playing blues licks.


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[Peter C]

Thomastik 21w 27.3 lbs (Jazz Swings)
D'Addario 21w 21.4 lbs (Nickel plated)
From their respective sites. I researched this for my own purposes recently.

Exactly why the 3rd and 4th strings generally have more tension is still a mystery to me: it's what we're used to. To "mitigate neck twist" - hmm.

[sgosnell]

You're comparing different string types, and ignoring widely different gauges in sets. FWIW, D'Addario Chromes ECG25 which is a .012 set of flatwounds, has a total tension of 154.3 lb. TI Jazz Swings JS112, which is the comparable set to the ECG25s, has a total tension of 140.4 lb, both supposedly at 25.5" scale, although I can't find where TI specifies the scale length. The TI gauges are smaller than the D'Addarios, except for the plain strings, and interestingly, TI says their plain strings have lower tension than the D'Addarios even though they're the same diameter, .012 and .016. Perhaps TI uses a different scale length, I don't know, but the listed tension for a TI set is lower than a D'Addario set. It's hard to compare individual string tension, because they often have the same diameters on different notes, cf TI lists a .035" string as an A, and D'Addario lists it as a D, albeit in different sets. Tuning the same string to different notes will obviously result in different tensions. I'm just going from sets I have on hand, I'm too lazy to look up every string on the websites.

[entresz]

I get a very woody tone out of my 73 Les Paul Recording. They do have different pickups, low-impedance stacked humbuckers, but with Thomastic 12-50s and the tone control rolled off a bit, it has a nice jazz tone. Mine is supposedly light for a Recording model but it still weighs a ton, so it doesn't get as much use as my archtops primarily for that reason.

[dconeill]

... TI sets have balanced tension, or very close to it. D'A and most other manufacturers provide sets with the tension varying rather widely, ...

Just FYI, d'A offers a few sets with what they claim is balanced tension. They have the suffix "BT" - e.g., EXL115BT. AFAIK d'A only make these in a few sizes, and none of them are heavy enough for me because I'm a Real Man (TM). Or something like that.

[Peter C]

D'Addario Chrome 22 gauge is listed at 25.3 lbs, so still below the TI 21 gauge (I checked because I'm interested for practical reasons). I imagine both manufacturers are measuring that on a 25.5" scale, but if TI are using a Gibson scale, the difference would be even greater. Even so, the TI set could still have overall lower tension and my own experience, as said, is that they actually require a slightly higher action to avoid buzzes.

I went down this rabbit hole years ago and have tried 'em all and guess what, I'm back to D'Addario nickel plated roundwounds, for now

PS If you want to make up a "tension balanced" D'Addario 12 gauge set, grab a BT 9-40 set (It think that's the one), throw out the first string and add a single 50 or 52 at the bottom. Works well on my Strat.

[citizenk74]

I notice that when I remove them, if I run my finger along the loose string, I can feel the kinks.

I think I have a rather heavy touch.

Or perhaps you get more playing hours than some of us. My LP Custom came with those toothpicky fretless wonder frets and over years of abuse they had developed some sharp edges which took a toll on any strings I used - in those days, a 0.015 - 0.060 set. They always wound up (no pun intended) visibly notched; and the shredded frets taught me to lift the fingers before moving the hand. I changed strings once a year, b/c at those gauges, they don't break! I briefly switched to some Bill Lawrence phosphor something long life sets and had to stop b/c they were grinding little coil grooves into what was left of the frets. I eventually had it re-fretted with conventional wire and went to less beefy strings. The discovery of flatwounds was revelatory!

[Spook410]

For me, a woody tone is all about the attack, complexity and relatively short sustain of an archtop.

[whiskey02]

Disregarding stats, TI strings have a noticeable "softer/lighter" FEEL than other . 11, .12, .13 sets.

My perception of Benson's sound is that it sounds like very low action. Sort of like how rock n roll strats are frequently set up; action low enough to give a little bit of growl.

[TedBPhx]

Thick(er) pick maybe?