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Just got this from carter vintage. Listing didn't say anything about cracks and i spoke to the guy for 30 min for an in hand assessment. They did a careful packing job and the box isn't damaged.
I want to keep the guitar because it's definitely a player and not a collector grade instrument. Usually i would ask for a partial refund, but I spoke to their guy and he says they didn't note any cracks before shipping. He says I need to take it up with UPS, which is odd.
Obviously I could just send the guitar back and ask for a full refund by threatening a chargeback. I don't want to do that because it's pretty aggressive and we haven't gotten there yet. Also, as I said, I do want to keep the guitar, I just want a partial refund.
Anyone have tips on how to work with this guy to get what I want? Interactions have all been totally cordial so far. I'm just surprised that they want me to take it up with UPS - that's usually something the seller does. I think we'd lose the UPS claim because UPS is really picky about anything they didn't pack and ship.
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02-02-2022 03:21 PM
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Judging by the checking pattern left and right of the crack, there's no way this was done by UPS.
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Those certainly look like old cracks. Seller is untrustworthy if they won't give you a partial refund to get those cracks repaired.
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"...take it up with UPS"?
Once they tossed that BS at me, the gloves would be off. Totally unacceptable. I'd kill the deal.
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Yeah that's my suspicion, but I want to be nice and minimize headache for now.
Originally Posted by ronjazz
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Don't want to kill the deal, want to get a partial refund.
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Communicate to the seller that the instrument isn't in the condition you expected, and you'd like a parital refund (determine what you feel is reasonable) OR you'll be returning it! See what happens!
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the first thing you need to do is stop wearing socks w/ sandles
as for the guitar those cracks are oxidized and very old
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I would not hold the guitar past the approval period. If they dont do a partial refund in that time frame, send it back and eat the shipping
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Epi Deluxe ?
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Old cracks. Take a look inside with a light and mirror. See if it's been patched and cleated from the inside.
At the very least, they knew and didn't say. You put your good money down on something they were aware of and did not divulge. It may very well be stable, but that most certainly should have been your decision.
If it's cleated and stabilized internally, negotiate a price reduction for their sin of omission. If it's not, then it may last or it may not. It may prove to be a weak point if it's ever traumatized again, or it may be that your environmental conditions are more severe than the owner's and that crack may spread and open up even more. I've seen both cases.
It's a new guitar. Don't start your relationship with it by paying a lot for a bag of problems. Those cracks are not tiny and they knew. Of course they'll be friendly with you if they know $$$ hangs in the balance. It's your money. You did not knowingly give it up for damaged goods.
My humble opinion.
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Yes those are old cracks and I don't think a huge problem but if it has to do with the value and what you paid I would send it back. I am glad you mentioned the name of the dealer he has a D'angelico Style A1 I am looking at and this is a heads for me. I my case I drive to the shop but don't want to make a 5.5 hour trip for a guitar not explained well.
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Yep. Thanks everyone for confirming my intuition. I think Carter is playing dumb intentionally and just want to offload the risk. I'm experienced enough in this not to be bullied so I'm not really sweating it too much.
Also, the UPS package itself and the case are in perfect condition, so there's no way there crack came from shipping. I had it shipped overnight (following Steve L's advice here from now on) to de-risk it.
It's on a chase sapphire reserve card and i spoke to my bank already. They said I can do a partial dispute if worse comes to worst. I'm still nudging the guys at carter and going to try to escalate. Basically they can give me a partial refund now voluntarily, or my bank can force the refund from them in a few days.
I will probably take it to Eric Shoenberg for an evaluation of repair cost. Anybody want to take a stab for the cost of repair? Multiply by 200% because I live in the bay area.
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I’m surprised at the guts a dealer must have to send giant cracks undisclosed. That’s pretty insane.
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Originally Posted by 6v6ster
Only major dealer I've done business with that has even more guts is Chicago Music Exchange, who put "Inspection Notes" in the instrument case that directly contradict the condition of the instrument.
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I don't want to sound like it is nothing but side cracks like this are actually not a problem. You can inspect the guitar inside with a mirror. Since this is a players grade instrument and the side just need to be glued with a cleat this is simple. If they have been this way for a long time and I suspect that is the case then the guitar is not going to explode. They are stress cracks that develop because the side are bent by hand and they can be a point of weakness in the wood. If fact if you have an inspection mirror, a guitar string, secure solid maple strips for cleats you can do this repair yourself. PM me if you want me to walk you through it frankly it is not big deal. As long as you don't mind the cosmetics being perfect, and they will never be on a guitar this age you are good to do this yourself. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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Try putting a bit of paper or cloth in the cracks. If there is a darkish line of dust, that could/would indicate how old the cracks are.
Or ask them to provide you with all photos of the guitar they may have taken prior to selling.
They must have some.
If they don't have any of the sides, or none of the pictures they provide show the sides at the point where the cracks are, it's likely they're avoided showing them and thus further proof, they were there all along.
Nobody doesn't have a picture of the side of a guitar at least present in the view of a back shot, front shot etc..
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Alright, so I managed to escalate it up from the original sales agent by letting them know that my credit card company recommended that I charge it back and ask them to pay for shipping both ways. A more senior agent called me and said they're willing to pay for the repair and they just need a quote from a luthier. They agreed to confirm this via email. I emailed them back a confirmation of the events, the discussions we had, and they confirmed the email.
Crisis averted. Got some scars on the guitar that was already meant to be a player but who cares. It plays and sounds great and my TK Smith floating pickup fits under the strings.
All's well that ends well.
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Oh and just because it ended in an ok state doesn't mean I'm happy with Carter Vintage. Here's my recommendation for any future customers. It definitely applies to this shop since they seem to be a bit shady, but it's really a good idea for anyone buying a vintage instrument.
(1) Speak to them on the phone about the condition of the guitar. Write down notes and ask them to confirm those notes via email.
(2) Download and save all html and images associated with the listing. Once they take it down, they will refuse to send you the listing because they know it can be used against them.
(3) Videotape the unboxing, take footage of the condition of the box as well as every layer of packaging as you work your way toward the guitar, and also videotape a thorough inspection of the guitar. It is best to do this in one continual shot so that it's clear there was no discontinuity between the unpacking and the damage that was found.
(4) Make sure you use a premium credit card so you're covered in case anything goes wrong. When Joe V offers a 3% discount for a cash offer, it's probably not worth it lol.
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1) If I want a record of what someone says on the phone, I use my computer to record the conversation with a voice recording app. You simply use the loud speaker on the phone and hold it near'ish the computer. Notes aren't evidence. Although it does depend on whether or not you can use a recorded conversation, if the other person doesn't know they're being recored. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
2) Great idea.
3) Very good idea. I gave the same advice to a fellow member last month and do so myself for every guitar I buy and sell.
4) If you don't have a card, use paypapl and offer to pay the fees.
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Avoiding that dealer seems line a better idea.
These situations seem to be increasing. The dealers must realize how small the jazz archtop community is. Maybe we jazzguitar.be folks need to be clear to these villains that the pain they are putting one member through is being communicated out to our community. Let the bastards kniw we know what theyre up too, and our family does too.
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It not just jazz guitars. While there are some great, honest dealers, it’s no secret the vintage guitar world is full of snakes and weasels. I think more than the honest ones. You can’t be too careful.
I don’t buy too often, but usually buy from individual sellers and have much better luck than dealers.
Out of the 5 brick and mortar places I have dealt with in the last 10 years, 3 were either shady with me or I later heard they were shady to someone else.
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this has been going on w/ guitars forever but seems to have ramped up lately
a prominent northwestern dealer that some people seem to really like has sold guitars that I owned previously w/ no mention of the major repairs they have undergone. I know they had major repairs because I commissioned them!
Even Gruhn, one of the better dealers, rarely mentions repairs anymore.
if you don't ask specific questions dealers aren't mentioning issues, it's almost as if they think the average buyer is clueless.
off the top of my head Larry Wexer and Retrofret seem to be the only prominent dealers I can think of that remain honest and forthright.
it's caveat emptor more than ever anymore.....
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+1 on Larry! (But WM you know i know that)
But my point wasn’t about music markets in general.
I was trying to say we have a good collection of buyers in a subsegment of a subsegment (music:guitars:jazz:archtops) and it would behoove us to act as a group, using what (little?) power to let them know we are watching. Wasnt it Stringswinger in the JZ thread who said presentation of the truth is not libel.
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Truth is an absolute defense to libel and slander. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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