Speaking of George Benson....

**Litterick** · 10-24-2021, 10:38 PM

Montgomery seems to have been misquoted in Ingram's book. The interview published in Guitar Player in 1973 was not rare and unpublished. It is a reprint of an interview published in the annual guitar issue of Down Beat on 20th July 1961. The Gleason interview is online on Jazz Profiles, and it contains no mention of Farlow or anyone else being sloppy. You can read the original on the Internet Archive.

These are the relevant paragraphs:

Other guitar players? Well, Barney Kessel. I've got to go for that. He's got a lot of feeling and a good conception of chords in a jazz manner. He's still trying to do a lot of things, and he's not just standing still with guitar, just settling for one particular level. He's still going all he can, and that's one thing I appreciate about him. He's trying to phrase, also. He's trying to get away from the guitar phrase and get into horn phrasing.

And Tal Farlow. Tal Farlow strikes me as different altogether. He doesn't have as much feeling as Barney Kessel to me, but he's got more drive in his playing, and his technique along with that drive is pretty exciting. He makes it exciting. I think he's got a better conception of modern chords than the average guitar player.

A lot of guitar players can play modern chords, they can take a solo of modern chords; but they're liable to leave it within the solo range that they're in. They're liable to get away from it and then come back to it, get away from it and come back to it. Tal Farlow usually stays right on it.

The sentences, "Sometimes he gets kind of sloppy like a lot of guitar players, that's why a lot of cats have put him down,” and “But I guess nobody has got it all, but he's got a lot of drive, though, and he's fast" were inserted into a reprint of the interview in Jazz and Blues magazine in 1973, and in Jazz Guitarists: Collected Interviews from Guitar Player Magazine, published in 1975. They can be found by searching for the offending sentences on Google Books. Unfortunately, the searches cannot be copied, because it is Google.

**wintermoon** · 10-25-2021, 12:57 AM

Bought this Sonny Criss lp over 40 yrs ago, not just because Tal was on it, but Criss was a superb alto player deserving of much more recognition and this is a great rhythm section. Tal plays good, certainly not up to his 50s playing, but good. Anyway when I was a teenager I caught him for the first time in a little club. I brought the lp and asked him to sign it and he said he felt funny signing a record he was a sideman on, "and besides, Jimmy Raney was supposed to be on it but couldn't make it so they brought me in @ the last minute" but he signed it anyway being the gentleman he was.

**Litterick** · 10-25-2021, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder who added the bit about Tal being sloppy? Ingram? His editor? Jazz and Blues Magazine? Guitar Player Magazine? Wes would never have said that in 1961.

Thank you. I went looking for the truth because I could not believe that Wes would have said that. Ingram and his editor seem to be innocent, doing no more than reprinting Guitar Player's article. The article was published in Guitar Player in its July/August 1973 edition, then in the October 1973 edition of Jazz and Blues. So it seems Guitar Player is to blame.

However, Ralph J. Gleason, the interviewer, was still alive, so he might have provided the altered text. Perhaps Wes did say it, but Gleason kept it out of Down Beat, only revealing the full interview after Montgomery's death.

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 07:50 AM

I find it hard to believe Wes would have said that as well.

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 07:51 AM

Btw I think Wes’s comments as quoted in the original sum it up perfectly in a really perceptive yet classy way.

one of the hardest things when talking about players - especially peers - is to not sound like you are criticising them, but instead focus on what makes them good, their individuality. But it’s also one of the best things one can do because not only is it classy, but it’s also a great way to open to learning from them.

**Woody Sound** · 10-25-2021, 12:46 PM

Just to throw some oil in, I always thought BK was sloppy, but in a very cool way.

**zdub** · 10-25-2021, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Montgomery seems to have been misquoted in Ingram's book. The interview published in Guitar Player in 1973 was not rare and unpublished. It is a reprint of an interview published in the annual guitar issue of Down Beat on 20th July 1961. The Gleason interview is online on Jazz Profiles, and it contains no mention of Farlow or anyone else being sloppy. You can read the original on the Internet Archive.

(snip)

Thanks for that link, wasn't aware that so many Down Beat issues have been scanned. Down Beat 1937-2014 : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive

This I found curious in the quoted article about Jimmy Raney:

"Jimmy Raney appears to be a victim of his own reticence and an economic situation in jazz, which, in part, reflects of a peculiar racial dichotomy"

Italics mine: what does that mean?

**Doctor Jeff** · 10-25-2021, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by zdub

Thanks for that link, wasn't aware that so many Down Beat issues have been scanned. Down Beat 1937-2014 : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive

This I found curious in the quoted article about Jimmy Raney:

"Jimmy Raney appears to be a victim of his own reticence and an economic situation in jazz, which, in part, reflects of a peculiar racial dichotomy"

Italics mine: what does that mean?

Well you'd have to go back and think of it in the context of when it was written...but my guess is, "he's a white guy playing jazz, he can't be any good."

Anyway, you know what they say about music journalists: people who can't play writing for people who can't read...

**sgcim** · 10-25-2021, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by zdub

Thanks for that link, wasn't aware that so many Down Beat issues have been scanned. Down Beat 1937-2014 : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive

This I found curious in the quoted article about Jimmy Raney:

"Jimmy Raney appears to be a victim of his own reticence and an economic situation in jazz, which, in part, reflects of a peculiar racial dichotomy"

Italics mine: what does that mean?

Sounds like the same old story; Blacks only record/play with Black musicians, and white musicians only record/play with white musicians.
Look at Raney's output; in the 50s, most albums were with white musicians; Brookmeyer, Al Cohn, Zoot Sims, Teddy Charles, Red Norvo, Buddy DeFranco, Red Mitchell, Aaron Sachs, Hall Overton, Phil Woods, John Wilson, Al Haig,Stan Getz, etc...
However, he did record with Sonny Clarke in Europe and with Donald Byrd on the album "Two Guitars" w/ Kenny Burrell.
When he made his comeback in the 70s and 80s, he played with Barry Harris on some cuts on the Live in Tokyo album, and Barry Harris seemed to not even know he existed!
BH remarked, " He sounds more like Bird than any other guitarist I've ever heard!"

A trumpet player friend of mine, who has an extremely large collection of Blue Note LPs, lives in Briarwood, Queens, NY, the same town Raney used to live in.
One day he noticed a young guy with long hair, carrying a guitar, while they were waiting for a bus. They started talking, and found out they both played jazz. The young guy said, "You might have heard of my father, Jimmy Raney. He's a jazz guitarist."
My friend said, "Nope, never heard of him." It turned out to be Doug Raney!

Two good books that cover both sides of the 'racial dichotomy' are "Notes and Tones" by Art Taylor, and
"Where the Dark and Light Folks Meet" by Randall (Randy) Sandke.

**wintermoon** · 10-25-2021, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Sounds like the same old story; Blacks only record/play with Black musicians, and white musicians only record/play with white musicians.
Look at Raney's output; in the 50s, most albums were with white musicians; Brookmeyer, Al Cohn, Zoot Sims, Teddy Charles, Red Norvo, Buddy DeFranco, Red Mitchell, Aaron Sachs, Hall Overton, Phil Woods, John Wilson, Al Haig,Stan Getz, etc...
However, he did record with Sonny Clarke in Europe and with Donald Byrd on the album "Two Guitars" w/ Kenny Burrell.
When he made his comeback in the 70s and 80s, he played with Barry Harris on some cuts on the Live in Tokyo album, and Barry Harris seemed to not even know he existed!
BH remarked, " He sounds more like Bird than any other guitarist I've ever heard!"

A trumpet player friend of mine, who has an extremely large collection of Blue Note LPs, lives in Briarwood, Queens, NY, the same town Raney used to live in.
One day he noticed a young guy with long hair, carrying a guitar, while they were waiting for a bus. They started talking, and found out they both played jazz. The young guy said, "You might have heard of my father, Jimmy Raney. He's a jazz guitarist."
My friend said, "Nope, never heard of him." It turned out to be Doug Raney!

Two good books that cover both sides of the 'racial dichotomy' are "Notes and Tones" by Art Taylor, and
"Where the Dark and Light Folks Meet" by Randall (Randy) Sandke.

I think some of this has to do w/the labels they were signed to. Blue Note and Prestige lps usually had black musicians. Pacific Jazz leaned more towards white musicians, Riverside was pretty much color blind, as was Contemporary. There are exceptions of course.

**Donplaysguitar** · 10-25-2021, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I find it hard to believe Wes would have said that as well.

I don't know why. He complemented Tal too. Besides, Tal was a little sloppy. So was Barney, so was Kenny. Of note - Wes' technique improved over time. His later work with that thumb (or at least by '65) was stonger than his early work.

Pat Martino's comment about Benson being "a pretty good R&B player" seems much more of a kick in the nads to me. Benson was both a great R&B player and a great jazz player. And - he chose to sing and became rich. He went from clubs to concert halls, and sold many records.

Martino's statement sounds like typical competitive criticism. It happens every day.

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar

I don't know why. He complemented Tal too. Besides, Tal was a little sloppy. So was Barney, so was Kenny. Of note - Wes' technique improved over time. His later work with that thumb (or at least by '65) was stonger than his early work.

I meant more, that's just doesn't seem like Wes's style to me from the interviews I've read of his. It's not about whether it was fair or unfair of him to say, I just don't think it sounds like him.

**2bornot2bop** · 10-25-2021, 05:32 PM

I don’t know. But I was left thinking does that article sound anything like Wes? Wes wasn’t nearly as articulate as the article suggests. I’m not buying any of it. And why are they quoting Wes 12 years after the supposed remarks and over 5 years after he’s dead? I get the enthusiasm for anything Wes after his passing, but at what point are you writing anything in direct quotes so long after someone is dead and gone?

All the comments by Wes that I’ve heard Wes was literally glowing about someone’s playing. Wes was too gracious to be anything but complimentary about anyones playing.

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

Just to throw some oil in, I always thought BK was sloppy, but in a very cool way.

Yeah, I think you'd have to have no ears not to notice that BK's technique was not always the most precise, but I'd trade any amount of chops for that level of swing ...

**Donplaysguitar** · 10-25-2021, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I meant more, that's just doesn't seem like Wes's style to me from the interviews I've read of his. It's not about whether it was fair or unfair of him to say, I just don't think it sounds like him.

I understand, he seemed pretty humble and genuinely nice. Maybe it was Martino who actually said it. (just kidding).

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

I don’t know. But I was left thinking does that article sound anything like Wes? Wes wasn’t nearly as articulate as the article suggests. I’m not buying any of it. And why are they quoting Wes 12 years after the supposed remarks and over 5 years after he’s dead? I get the enthusiasm for anything Wes after his passing, but at what point are you writing anything in direct quotes so long after someone is dead and gone?

See above

Originally Posted by Litterick

Montgomery seems to have been misquoted in Ingram's book. The interview published in Guitar Player in 1973 was not rare and unpublished. It is a reprint of an interview published in the annual guitar issue of Down Beat on 20th July 1961.

**Christian Miller** · 10-25-2021, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar

I understand, he seemed pretty humble and genuinely nice. Maybe it was Martino who actually said it. (just kidding).

I'd buy that haha

**ESCC** · 10-25-2021, 05:44 PM

If the comments about Tal were made by Wes in 2020 or 2021 I could buy into it being consistent with the times, but not during his lifetime. I'll take the high road and believe otherwise.