Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers vs PAFs - A scam, joke, or delusion?

[citizenk74]

Aw, man, thats a nice blues. I love the phrasing and timing. Thanks.

That's very kind of you to say, and I greatly appreciate it. Despite having played countless blues songs over the years, I was able to approach this dead-simple, bare-bones arrangement with fresh ears. I simply started recording and playing the guitar for the fills, which make up the bulk of the song, and recording the ride as a unit (the ride has both pickups on; the fills were recorded first on one pickup; the best bits edited into one continuous track, then doubled with the other pickup. I forget which order I did them in, and despite the fact that one side of the stereo image is a 50 watt Plexi and the other is a '64 Vibroverb, I cannot distinguish them, nor do I care. The finished recording retains a spontaneous feel and a jazzy tone (I think). I'm good with that.

[bluejaybill]

Wes Montgomery, interviewed in 1965 for Crescendo:

Well, as you know, all amplifiers have different peaks, tonewise. That's one reason why I never want to go into the electronic end of it. I mean, for pick-ups, you've even got a resistor for your controls, man. If you're going to count on one, you've got to count on everything. If the sound has to be that fine - whew! you're in trouble. Search for the sound you want, but give your self reasonable space within it. You have to find the instrument you want first. This is much more important than the amplifier. You've got to feel comfortable. As far as the pickup's concerned, you could check that out with your amplifier. It shouldn't take you that long, because your concern is not all amplification. If you spend too much time trying to find out what bar does this, or what pick-up does that, you'll be getting away from the axe. Your first concern should be what you hear, what you're producing on your instrument. All this other stuff is secondary. I'm concerned about my set-up, but up to a certain level I always give it a lot of play. I got a standard box - I don't never want nothing special. I want it just as standard as I can get it. Then, if I drop my box, I can borrow somebody else's. Like, if I've only got one amp, with the precise sound, and it falls off on the floor - I don't have no job. And if they want to get with Charlie Christian - he had tape all on his box and everything. They tell me the controls and the tail-piece had fallen off, and he would be taping up holes, and things. Nobody wants that. That would look too bad. But you heard what he did with it.

Great quote! But let's not forget that Wes's guitar had one pickup- an original PAF! So in addition to Wes being Wes, he had a considerable head start!

[Stringswinger]

Great quote! But let's not forget that Wes's guitar had one pickup- an original PAF! So in addition to Wes being Wes, he had a considerable head start!

Yep, Wes' L-5 was not quite "a standard box" with the one pickup.

[jim777]

My '64 ES-345TDSTV has Patent Sticker pickups which (per esteemed forum member stringswinger) are the same as the earlier PAFs, held on to by virtue of their gold-plated covers. I've gotten every tone I can conceive of, and some I hadn't, with these pickups. For anyone wishing to hear what they can do in the stereo context for which they were meant, check out the track, "The Blues Place" from the playlist (actually, it's a concept album, but whatevs) "UTONIA" as available for free listening on the Soundcloud thingie in my signature below. Headphones or other stereo setups preferred. Comments, good or otherwise, are always welcome. Enjoy! Or not.

Fantastic sound you're getting there, I like everything about that. Thanks for sharing!

[bluejaybill]

OK, so PAF's- don't get me started! Oh wait- too late!

As someone said, none of the materials in an original are available, metals, plastics, and particularly the magnets- they don't make them the same way anymore. The magnet compositions are different. The wire composition is different. So matching an original is probably impossible.

As far as originals being all over the place, lots were dogs- sorry, no. Not my experience. I have played literally dozens and dozens of PAF guitars, owned one for 30 years and still have a pair on my reissue LP. Yes, some are hotter than others but they all fall within recognizable auditory profile: bright but warm, sweet, slightly nasal, always good if in proper repair. I have never heard a bad one that wasn't broken in some way. The ones I have are slightly different from one another, but in the same profile, both still great. And believe me, I've tried to replace them with premium, boutique etc pickups for years because they are so valuable- easily worth more than the guitar they are in. None have lasted more than a few days, and then the old ones go back in. And BTW, this is true as well of vintage Fender pickups, though I think some repros come closer.

Why do people poo poo old pickups? Because either they can't get them or they don't recognize the difference. Based on what I have heard from repro makers, I'm not sure they can put their fingers on what is different either. At least they can't seem to capture it. And the amazing thing about PAF's is that they are good for so many styles of music, from jazz to pop to heavy metal.

So we need to make peace with this, take each modern pickup for what they are, and as approaching as best as they can, but maybe never reaching, that holy grail. You can make great music with Lollars, Fralins, Gibsons etc.

Now forget about it and get back to practicing, as Wes suggests!

[citizenk74]

Fantastic sound you're getting there, I like everything about that. Thanks for sharing!

Thank you very much! Tone is in the fingers, as I've been known to say. Patent-sticker PAFs in stereo just kind of add sprinkles to the icing on the cake.

[feet]

1139529[/URL]]Wes Montgomery, interviewed in 1965 for Crescendo:

Well, as you know, all amplifiers have different peaks, tonewise. That's one reason why I never want to go into the electronic end of it. I mean, for pick-ups, you've even got a resistor for your controls, man. If you're going to count on one, you've got to count on everything. If the sound has to be that fine - whew! you're in trouble. Search for the sound you want, but give your self reasonable space within it. You have to find the instrument you want first. This is much more important than the amplifier. You've got to feel comfortable. As far as the pickup's concerned, you could check that out with your amplifier. It shouldn't take you that long, because your concern is not all amplification. If you spend too much time trying to find out what bar does this, or what pick-up does that, you'll be getting away from the axe. Your first concern should be what you hear, what you're producing on your instrument. All this other stuff is secondary. I'm concerned about my set-up, but up to a certain level I always give it a lot of play. I got a standard box - I don't never want nothing special. I want it just as standard as I can get it. Then, if I drop my box, I can borrow somebody else's. Like, if I've only got one amp, with the precise sound, and it falls off on the floor - I don't have no job. And if they want to get with Charlie Christian - he had tape all on his box and everything. They tell me the controls and the tail-piece had fallen off, and he would be taping up holes, and things. Nobody wants that. That would look too bad. But you heard what he did with it.

what a noob

1139565[/URL]]Benedettos use high-output pickups, designed to be played with the volume rolled back by at least 50%. That changes the resonance peak, and thus the sound. An A6 fully open doesn't sound that great to me, but at ~50% it is a great pickup, perhaps the best I've heard. Changing the volume changes the sound, and makes it easier to get the sound you want. A weaker pickup gives pretty much one sound, and you like it or you don't. The difference in tone from an A6 with volume changes isn't dramatic, but it's enough to be heard, at least by me. If I wanted to change humbuckers, an A6 would almost always be my first choice.

that's an interesting approach that's really putting a lot of faith in the end user. Glad it's working. I think I did err on the side of brightness because that could be mitigated. Makes me a little more aware of what my hands are doing. I was able to get a breadth of sounds (including ones I wanted) from my old pickups, but the new ones made sure I always started right in the ballpark of where I wanted to be. I had plenty of options from that new starting point, but I never had to go far, and I never had to search to get what I needed. I was always fiddling with the stock pickups.

Though honestly, I prefer to be an everything at 10 guy, for consistency and easily repeatable results. I don't want to revisit a recording and wonder how I had things set up. That might have been the biggest, most useful change from my pup swap; I had my starting point recalibrated. All 10s is always valid now.

[jazzkritter]

Hi K
Well if the tone is in the fingers you got good fingers!
Finally got to listen, my kid had my headphones all weekend.
Really nice thanks for linking!

jk d

[sgosnell]

Everything wide open is certainly a valid preference. I have the guitars I play most often equipped without a tone control, because I don't like the tone I get when it's rolled off. Tone is such a subjective subject that I find it hard to criticize anyone else's. There is no part of any Benedetto guitar that everyone likes, nor of any other brand or make. Some people like the A6, some don't, and there are more models available than I can count. We all vote with our pocketbooks, and every vote is as valid as any other. All I meant to say is that's the philosophy behind Benedetto's pickups, if I understand correctly. Like it or not, it matters not.

[jazzkritter]

Its all a vanilla, chocolate thing. All legit.

[ronjazz]

Well, now I'm glad that I went Gretsch a few weeks ago. First amplified sound I've really liked since my L5-D'Armond rig nearly 50 years ago. In fact, I found a setting that sounds very much like Johnny Smith's recordings, not to mention the psychobilly freakout sounds available. Well, for an arch top, that is. I was always pretty happy with my Godin nylon 7-string's RMC pickup.

[ccroft]

... A 1961 Les Paul SG with a sideways vibrola... Between the short neck joint and vibrola, keeping it in tune was a struggle...

Ha! I played one of those for 7 years. I took that contraption off and put a stop tail on after a couple of days. I'd taken a lesson or 3 from Art Johnson (guitar with Paul Horn at the time), and he had that setup on his. Mine got stolen in '76 or something. Don't know what happened to the Vibrola, but it's probably worth a small fortune to whoever ended up with my LP.

[JCat]

I can't comment on the Seth Lovers, but I'll testify that humbucker pickups in general are indeed different. I don't think it's meaningful to talk about pickup performance in isolation, It's about making the pickups work for you in the context of everything else. Pickup replacement may be a quick fix, or it could turn out to be an expensive, time consuming effort with unsatisfactory results.
Deep inside the rabbit hole there's a key to unleash your tone. You'll find it when you're on the way out.

[mad dog]

I've never heard just pickups. They're always in guitars. So when it comes to attributing great variability in sound, to what should I attribute it?

In the early 90s I went looking for a 335. Found a local shop with a number of old ones for sale. Some early 60s, some mid late 60s, some 70s and later. I tried them all. Not knowing any of the vintage backstory at the time, I was unconstrained by expectation. A '64 really did sound fine, but had been converted to stoptail, and was pricey. (I could tell even then that the trap style tailpiece felt and sounded better to me.)

Couldn't do that price. So the shop owner pulled out one more, a '66 he'd just repaired, sitting in the shop area. Headstock snapped in shipping. Frets so worn it was almost unplayable. It had been well used through the years, looked it. A strikingly beautiful sound plugged in. So that one came home with me. And in years since, I've heard and played many other old 335s. Some excellent, some not, none better sounding than that '66. Which I learned later had patent sticker p/us. Were the p/us special, or was the whole guitar special? Hard to tell ... I think it was both.

A little clip of that guitar alone, messing with a blues feel: https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=8631127

[Cunamara]

Mad dog, you make an excellent point. We tend to talk about pickups in isolation as if they are the sole determinant of tone, rather than one link in a musical chain.

[ruger9]

Well, now I'm glad that I went Gretsch a few weeks ago. First amplified sound I've really liked since my L5-D'Armond rig nearly 50 years ago. In fact, I found a setting that sounds very much like Johnny Smith's recordings, not to mention the psychobilly freakout sounds available. Well, for an arch top, that is. I was always pretty happy with my Godin nylon 7-string's RMC pickup.

Which Gretsch model, and what pickups?

[Marty Grass]

Great quote! But let's not forget that Wes's guitar had one pickup- an original PAF! So in addition to Wes being Wes, he had a considerable head start!

Have you heard Wes with a P-90? I'm looking for a good quality recording. There must be some.

Here's a newer Gibson version with a single staple pickup. Luscious sounding but not the full humbucker mids.

This is a scene from the movie Crazy, which stars some mighty fine guitars. This video occurs in a place I imagine heaven to be.

[citizenk74]

Hi K
Well if the tone is in the fingers you got good fingers!
Finally got to listen, my kid had my headphones all weekend.
Really nice thanks for linking!

jk d

Very kind of you to say, and much appreciated! Thank you!

[ronjazz]

Which Gretsch model, and what pickups?

5420; Filtertrons. Bigsby as well. Very versatile guitar.

[ruger9]

This is a scene from the movie Crazy, which stars some mighty fine guitars. This video occurs in a place I imagine heaven to be.

Another movie I need to watch...

[Marty Grass]

Another movie I need to watch...

If you don't care about guitars and guitarists, you may not care for the flick. But then you wouldn't be on this forum.

I've watched the movie three times over the years.

[blackcat]

If you don't care about guitars and guitarists, you may not care for the flick. But then you wouldn't be on this forum.

I've watched the movie three times over the years.

What is the full title please? Tried Googling it, but came up with zero.

Thanks.

David

[ruger9]

What is the full title please? Tried Googling it, but came up with zero.

Thanks.

David

It's a bit difficult to find. The title is "Crazy" (2007, I have also seen 2008). Also search for Hank Garland Story. One of the executive producers was Steve Vai.

[jim777]

Have you heard Wes with a P-90? I'm looking for a good quality recording. There must be some.

Here's a newer Gibson version with a single staple pickup. Luscious sounding but not the full humbucker mids.

This is a scene from the movie Crazy, which stars some mighty fine guitars. This video occurs in a place I imagine heaven to be.

I had no idea Tony played Wes Montgomery in a movie! Tony is a heck of a musician, I've seen him a few times. Will have to see if I can find that flick on one of the streaming services this weekend

EDIT: Ok, supposedly it is free on Amazon Prime. I haven't checked that myself but I will when I can.

[jim777]

So I'm watching the movie, and you guys were definitely right about the guitars! Gorgeous! So, early in the movie, the Hank Garland character is standing on the side of the stage waiting to go on for the first time, and a skinny dude in a awful outfit walks up and chats him up a bit, and tells him he needs to "play fast", and I had to laugh out loud Because as much as I like Tony McAlpine, I love Steve Vai and seeing him there in that ridiculous getup telling Hank Garland to play fast was just too much .