Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers vs PAFs - A scam, joke, or delusion?

**Marty Grass** · 08-06-2021, 07:47 PM

Like others on the forum, I have PAF-style pickups I paid extra for. Those include Throbaks and Lollar Low Winds. I also have Seth Lovers.

I can't say they sound the same, but I can't say they are significantly different either. True PAFs differ among themselves also.

If you believe Seymour Duncan, he's replicating PAFs and learned the process from Seth Lover, the inventor of the PAF. So what are we really chasing? Is it a ghost?

BTW, Gibson competes with itself with the Classic 57s only it's potted, meaning it's neither 1957 or classic. Nonetheless it's a very good pickup IMO.

Seymour Duncan Seymour Duncan SH-55 Seth Lover Pickups: An Overview

**jads57** · 08-06-2021, 10:35 PM

So here's my take after owning many different PAF variants from original to boutique as well as Seymours offerings. Magnets as well as guage wire and different amount of windings on each coil affect the tone.

Gibson Classic 57 PAF's have the same amount of windings on each coil, and use Alnico 5 magnets. To me they sound SMOOTHE and fairly strong in all frequencies.

Boutique Paf's different brands that follow the older builds. These have different amount of 42 guage wire on each coil, usually less winds as well. And different grade magnets say Alnico 2, or 4. These sound a bit less mids and less output as well. These are have more of a fat single coil tonality.

Again this is all depending what your guitar using. For me I have had the best luck with Manluis Pickups Landmark regular wind neck PAF and the Hot Rod 59 PAF bridge combo. I also request 4 wire and potting. These work well in every guitar I've had them in from a Benedetto Bambino Std, Gibson ES-339, Partscaster Tele Gib, etc.

**Cunamara** · 08-07-2021, 01:06 AM

FWIW, Gibson states the magnets are Alnico II.

Gibson | '''57 Classic Pickup

I have also read elsewhere that the magnets in the Classic 57 are Alnico II. I find that most humbucker pickups with Alnico V tend to have a very "hard" sound that doesn't sound good with my playing. I like the Classic 57 because it has a softer attack.

Addressing MG's fundamental question, "what are we chasing, is it a ghost?" yes, it is. We are chasing a fantasy guitar tone. Whatever pickup gets you closest to that fantasy is the one that's right for you. That having been said, there is an astonishing amount of nonsense spewed all over the Internet and in the music press about this topic- tone in general but particularly pickups, caps and tubes.

I don't know where this falls on the spectrum, but this article linked in another thread suggests that the original PAF magnets (1957-60) were closer to modern day Alnico IV:

About AlNiCo-Magnets in Historic Humbuckers- and P-90 Pickups | Tube Amp Doctor

**Clint 55** · 08-07-2021, 01:47 AM

Yes, you are chasing a ghost. To get real PAFs, you have to get real actual PAFs from back in the day. Replicas will be similar, and can be very nice, but there will be variations due to slight differences in construction. I love the Seth Lovers.

**garybaldy** · 08-07-2021, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

FWIW, Gibson states the magnets are Alnico II.

Gibson | '''57 Classic Pickup

I have also read elsewhere that the magnets in the Classic 57 are Alnico II. I find that most humbucker pickups with Alnico V tend to have a very "hard" sound that doesn't sound good with my playing. I like the Classic 57 because it has a softer attack.

Addressing MG's fundamental question, "what are we chasing, is it a ghost?" yes, it is. We are chasing a fantasy guitar tone. Whatever pickup gets you closest to that fantasy is the one that's right for you. That having been said, there is an astonishing amount of nonsense spewed all over the Internet and in the music press about this topic- tone in general but particularly pickups, caps and tubes.

I don't know where this falls on the spectrum, but this article linked in another thread suggests that the original PAF magnets (1957-60) were closer to modern day Alnico IV:

About AlNiCo-Magnets in Historic Humbuckers- and P-90 Pickups | Tube Amp Doctor

I know they are pretty cheap in the scheme of things but I have a set of the Tonerider AIVs which are very impressive and seem to have that fat single coil type tone. They are actually very good split as well. The two pickup coils in parallel not so good.

**Herbie** · 08-07-2021, 05:22 AM

Yes, it is s ghost.

The magnets are different, the wire is different, the plastic of the coils are different, the metal alloys of base and cover are different, the woods of the guitars are different, the strings are different, the guitar cables are different, the amps are different (even the old ones are different because the parts have aged), the recording technics (no more tube circuits) are different and the end product (record, vinyl or cd, streaming) is different. So chasing the authencity is kinda waste of time.

But one can still get a good sound with modern guitars with modern pickups!

**Marty Grass** · 08-07-2021, 09:05 AM

Gibson made the PAFs to a general design but relied on available materials on a day to day basis. Magnets were not identical month to month. Bobbins changed some. Coil wrapping was not precise.

If an elite pickup builder is to precisely replicate a PAF, it will be the PAF they happen to own, not all PAFs.

There's nothing wrong with that. What is sometimes confusing is when someone claims to have the real PAF sound.

I agree that we can have a great time listening to the fabulous pickups available today. These include all of the many PAF variants.

**John A.** · 08-07-2021, 11:03 AM

I've only ever played one guitar with original PAF's (a 335). It was a long time ago, so grains of salt, but I recall it sounding pretty much like any other 335 I've tried (within the parameters of variance in nominally identical guitars), not like some dramatically magically different creation.

Between that, the obvious snake oil in pickup marketing, and the fact that the sound we're chasing is the sound of other people playing on recordings, not us playing in a room, I don't think it's a chase worth taking up. Sure, Gibson. This time round you've really nailed the exact sound of your own product in every minute detail. You were BS'ing all those other times you said you did.

**citizenk74** · 08-07-2021, 11:54 AM

My '64 ES-345TDSTV has Patent Sticker pickups which (per esteemed forum member stringswinger) are the same as the earlier PAFs, held on to by virtue of their gold-plated covers. I've gotten every tone I can conceive of, and some I hadn't, with these pickups. For anyone wishing to hear what they can do in the stereo context for which they were meant, check out the track, "The Blues Place" from the playlist (actually, it's a concept album, but whatevs) "UTONIA" as available for free listening on the Soundcloud thingie in my signature below. Headphones or other stereo setups preferred. Comments, good or otherwise, are always welcome. Enjoy! Or not.

**John A.** · 08-07-2021, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

My '64 ES-345TDSTV has Patent Sticker pickups which (per esteemed forum member stringswinger) are the same as the earlier PAFs, held on to by virtue of their gold-plated covers. I've gotten every tone I can conceive of, and some I hadn't, with these pickups. For anyone wishing to hear what they can do in the stereo context for which they were meant, check out the track, "The Blues Place" from the playlist (actually, it's a concept album, but whatevs) "UTONIA" as available for free listening on the Soundcloud thingie in my signature below. Headphones or other stereo setups preferred. Comments, good or otherwise, are always welcome. Enjoy! Or not.

Yeah! You've got great guitar tones there. Great singing and playing, and cool tunes, too.

**Gilpy** · 08-07-2021, 01:37 PM

I’m old enough to have owned and played many versions of the “PAF” , including the real thing.
My conclusion is that it’s not possible to tell what a pickup is going to sound like in a particular guitar until you try it.
I’ve installed identical pickups in similar guitars and they sounded different.
I would say that there’s nothing special about authentic PAFs that you can’t get in modern pickups. Some sound great and some are just average.
My main guitar, a ‘64 es 335, has early patent number pickups that are basically a PAF. They sound really good, but I replaced them with Throbaks, which happened to sound better in that guitar.
It’s funny that so many people are chasing the PAF sound, when they’ve never really heard one except on a heavily produced record through a distorted amp!
I put the PAF thing in with the Brazilian rosewood fretboard thing...I can’t hear it but if it matters to you, go for it!

**frankhond** · 08-07-2021, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gilpy

except on a heavily produced record

This. And it's the same for "the Wes sound" or whatever sound one likes from a record.

I recently got into messing with amp and vintage console simulation plugins. You can change the tone dramatically just by using a Neve as opposed to an SSL. Not to mention the vintage mastering compressors... and the speaker/microphone combination.

If you have a good guitar that responds to your touch, and pickups/electronics that sit in the ballpark, I bet you can reproduce most tones out there.

**Gitterbug** · 08-07-2021, 03:08 PM

Nothing wrong chasing a haunting tone from the past, but did that tone really exist, and was it superior to what can be achieved today? Records are not the real thing. And the pup is just one component in the signal chain. Recordings are made from the other end, i.e. the amp, cab, speaker and recording technology play a role here.

I'm 74 and can't understand why new cannot be at least as good as old. Some of this must have to do with nostalgia - the memory of tones young ears heard eons ago, when the sound universe was less compressed and less saturated than today. At the risk of poking a hornets' nest, I think the same goes for Polytone. Are we looking into the rear mirror for something irreplaceable, or for our own memories? I haven't heard of a young player dying to get a Polytone.

joelf · 08-07-2021, 03:37 PM

I have no clue about these names; periods; and types.

I only know this: I have a wooden Seymour Duncan round hole PU for my acoustics. Set me back a paltry $70, and I LOVE it---would've paid $700 for that sound...

**sgosnell** · 08-07-2021, 04:02 PM

I'm also 74, and I have no nostalgia for the old days which weren't really all that good. Trying for Charlie Christian's sound is silly, because no one knows what he sounded like - certainly not like the recordings. There is little, if anything, that was better a hundred or 50 years ago than today.

**jazzkritter** · 08-07-2021, 04:06 PM

Ghosts or internet cork-sniffing? With the internet at finger reach many are looking at facts and figures, ie, comparing Gibson (and other) PAFs down to details that are interesting to the marketer but of questionable value in the real world. (That’s were we are, right? Real world? Sometimes i wonder.)))
And we end up comparing sounds with our ears which are all unique little things built out of your very own DNA. No two alike! (I’m not going down the wide long road of what were your ears trained on, etc.)
And that’s not adding in the buyer’s confirmation bias. Look up Lollar Imperials here. You immediately join a smart large set if you love ‘em.
Look up Fralin Modern PAFs… crickets…even though I love the sound and feel, I’m in a set of a handful of players.

**Litterick** · 08-07-2021, 04:13 PM

When we are chasing tone we are spending money, and that is what matters.

**Jim Soloway** · 08-07-2021, 04:26 PM

I don't think it's a scam, a joke or an illusion but I also don't think it's a necessity. I do think there is a difference between pickups but there is also a difference between players and guitars. I suspect that rather than trying to replicate the characteristics of a historic pickup, most people would be better off selecting pickups that best balance their needs and wants as a player with what would best work with the guitar it's going into.

**wintermoon** · 08-07-2021, 04:40 PM

Every guitar is different as are the components.
There's good sounding PAFs and great ones, but make no mistake about it, the hype is very real.
I've owned many Gibson humbucker equipped guitars and it's no coincidence that my 2 best sounding have PAFs, and I didn't even know they had them when purchased, my ears told me before I observed the little stickers on the bottom.

**citizenk74** · 08-07-2021, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

Yeah! You've got great guitar tones there. Great singing and playing, and cool tunes, too.

Thank you very much John. I appreciate your kind words and respect your always well-reasoned opinions. Not to mention your wry wit!

**jazzkritter** · 08-07-2021, 04:57 PM

When I did my massive but totally unscientific comparison (Super58, Fralin, Lollar, 36th, A6, wasn’t gonna pull the L5s PUPs) one thing that surprised me was the marked difference in playing feel. It seemed some were ‘just there’ but a couple others had a sense of interaction with the pick that stood out to me. It just felt more engaging. I don’t know if others note this, but I found that to be a major decision point.
Winter.. do find that a characteristic of the real PAF?

**fep** · 08-07-2021, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

My '64 ES-345TDSTV has Patent Sticker pickups which (per esteemed forum member stringswinger) are the same as the earlier PAFs, held on to by virtue of their gold-plated covers. I've gotten every tone I can conceive of, and some I hadn't, with these pickups. For anyone wishing to hear what they can do in the stereo context for which they were meant, check out the track, "The Blues Place" from the playlist (actually, it's a concept album, but whatevs) "UTONIA" as available for free listening on the Soundcloud thingie in my signature below. Headphones or other stereo setups preferred. Comments, good or otherwise, are always welcome. Enjoy! Or not.

Thanks for sharing, sounds great.

**Jim Soloway** · 08-07-2021, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

My '64 ES-345TDSTV has Patent Sticker pickups which (per esteemed forum member stringswinger) are the same as the earlier PAFs, held on to by virtue of their gold-plated covers. I've gotten every tone I can conceive of, and some I hadn't, with these pickups. For anyone wishing to hear what they can do in the stereo context for which they were meant, check out the track, "The Blues Place" from the playlist (actually, it's a concept album, but whatevs) "UTONIA" as available for free listening on the Soundcloud thingie in my signature below. Headphones or other stereo setups preferred. Comments, good or otherwise, are always welcome. Enjoy! Or not.

That would be this one?

**citizenk74** · 08-07-2021, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Thanks for sharing, sounds great.

Thank you, Frank, that's awfully nice of you to say. UTONIA was the culmination of everything I had learned to date (2002/2003). Done on a budget of $100 on an $80 Program, Cakewalk Guitar Tracks. A great deal of sweat equity was involved. My computer had to be de-fragged several times a day, which gave me the opportunity to attend to my household duties and walk several miles a day. Good times, while they lasted.

**citizenk74** · 08-07-2021, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

That would be this one?

The very same!
For those interested in the recording process - I first adjusted the pups of the 345 so that the neck had slightly more edge than the bridge, and the bridge was just a little warmer. than the neck. I then taped the knobs in place. I improvised all the connecting bits except the ride with one pickup, selected the best ones, and the doubled the lines with the other pickup. One pup went to my '72 50 watt Plexi via stereo cable and the other one to my '64 Browface Vibroverb. Neither amp is noted for their clean tones, but at the right settings they do sound fine. "Velvety" would be my descriptor. I then improvised the ride with each pup saved to a separate track (lots and lots of ping ponging). I did several takes and chose what I felt was the best one. A light touch of multi-band compression and a different reverb for each track and the song, based on a dream I had, was complete. It's in Bb. The 345 is standard tuning.