-
You guys are funny! That's why I put that link there. That's the exact same model I had, headstock and all, pretty easy to spot that it is what it is.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
Sounds wonderful on that clip to me, pretty woody, full. Wow. Love that guy. The potential is there, even if it doesn't sound like a real JS.
I think some of Benson's crisp full tone may come from the floating pickup, but I haven't played any other Gibsons (other than a Crest that a friend of mine had) with floating pickups, so I can't say. Can anyone comment on the difference between, say, an L5 with set-in vs floating pickups? There are a few variations out there, with same construction otherwise. Would be interesting to compare.
-
11-14-2013 10:42 PM
-
That is 100% not correct. Or should I say, 100% wrong. Where did you ever come up with such a statement? There is a GB album that folds out with a HUGH picture of him playing the Gibson Johnny Smith. And, it is on the back cover of Breezin'. Originally Posted by hannu
-
Ibanez also blatantly used the Gibson L5 tailpiece which just like their headstock shape is proprietary with Gibson. Originally Posted by hannu
-
There are examples where the copy is better than the original. Tokai comes to mind with their Les Paul and Strat copies vs what Gibson and Fender were producing at the time. There are copies that are junk. You can also have a copy that is quite a good guitar though it isn't as great as the original. There are a lot of really good Benedetto designs out there that don't match a real Manhattan but are certainly worth having.
-
Yes,that may be true when we are talking about MIJ copies from certain factories such as Tokai, Matsumoto and Originally Posted by Spook410
Terada, but most of the other copies I've run across have some issues, including the Epiphones that
were MIK and certainly early MIC at Gibson's Quingdao factory in China. Mass production results in cheaper and more readily available brands of guitars, but there isn't the quality of wood or attention to detail.
Look, I'm not saying that the crafts people at Ibanez can't make a good guitar, but for heaven's sake, they should make it on their own terms, and not copy EVERYTHING including the TP from an well known American brand. They seem to be going that way finally, in their latest GB models.
They were just as bad as the Chinese, who don't believe in patents or trademarks (logos, headstock shape, and other iconic features on certain guitars. Would you buy a MIC Fake Gibson Johnny Smith? Yes, there are out there on Fleabay..like a bunch of Asian spiders waiting to draw buyers with money, into their webs.
The same with Ibanez. I remember many years ago, Ibanez had a lot of issues (warped necks etc) and they were considered JUNK by the musicians that I met. Ibanez brand didn't have a good reputation. You can't take Asian acclimatized woods and bring it into NA and not expect cracks and warped necks. Now that they have a good player like Benson promoting their products and several years of experience, they appear to be better. A few years ago, I was looking at buying another arcthop jazz box. Looked at GB200 at a dealer's lockup room in a Toronto shop, where they keep expensive and vintage guitars in a specially built room. I played it.... but it just didn't do anything for me..it didn't generate the same excitement as a Gibson L5.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-15-2013 at 07:04 AM.
-
"Now?" Perhaps time flies more slowly for you, Daniel - if so, I'm envious - but the GB10 was introduced in 1978. That's 35 years ago (not "several") so Ibanez has made a few guitars since then. Ironically, they now do what most US manufacturers do, which is to impose a premium on their own domestic (Japanese) made products, with the bulk of product being made with cheaper labor nearby in China. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
No argument there... Goes without saying. Still, they are practical, serviceable, functional guitars suitable for a wide variety of players, pros included. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
-
A Ibanez GB10 did not give you the same excitement as an L5? What a surprise...
Ibanez makes excellent guitars used by people everywhere. I am not a fan of their ergonomics but the quality is great, for the price of course. Most pros I know have a cheap guitar to handle certain gigs / reharshals / classes where they don't want to use the most expensive ones... I have a Kingpin so I can leave my 65 X500 at home more often. The Kingpin is an excellent guitar for the price but, of course, not even close to the X500.. Different prices, different guitars, different purposes.
-
Daniel, I think you know better than that. But if you don't, Ibanez has made guitars since 1931. They were making very good quality already in the 1960's, and really became appreciated in the seventies worldwide. In those days Gibson was going through one of their darkest phases, the so called "Norlin era" and critized for poor quality. Fender had similar trouble during the new owner, and the concept of "PreBS" was born. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
These dark eras seem to follow the American manufacturers throughout their history for some reason.
In those days, Ibanez and Yamaha acquired huge stockpiles of best tone woods. Ibanez made copies of various guitars till about 1976, but they were not forgeries, just copies of Les Pauls etc. with the Ibanez logo. They were not accused at any time of anything illegal. From 1976, they made their own designs, many of them still in production. Well known are the Artist (AR), the AS200 of John Scofield fame, the George Benson models, the AM, AF and of course the Pat Metheny models, later on the JEM, S, and RG guitars.
Out of the several top of the line Gibsons that I have owned, three were good, others mediocre, hit and miss. My Super 400 CES is definately worth keeping. All Ibanezes that I have owned since 1968 have been exceptionally good. Not good for the money, just good.
Hannu
-
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I am very privileged to own both. I love them both, but they are very different and do things the other can't - GB10, crisp, snappy, precise, tolerates louder stage volumes, rock solid, almost never out of tune; L5, warm with sparkles in just the right places, right size for a tall guy like me, catches all those frequencies that you can't get with a pressed top.
But if I had to get rid of every jazz guitar I have except one, the GB10 would be the most versatile. The L5 would have to go first. Glad I don't have to make that choice.
I STILL wish I had the old Ibanez Johnny, though.. it was a nice cross between the two
-
Well let's not start splitting hairs here on "many years"..ok. If you disagree with my opinions (and my disclaimer DOES Originally Posted by rpguitar
say that you can ignore them or better still still click on "ignore" so you don't even see them anymore..?
I wasn't disputing that Ibanez (at least in the last few years..and don't ask me to specify actual dates) , have
improved, but they are Asian "copy cats", not innovators. We can argue this point until the "cows come home", and you will NEVER convince me that Ibanez is equivalent to Gibson at the quality of the L5 or Johnny Smith model..(no longer made) ...or the LeGrand model that replaced the JS model.
They (Ibanez) are and always have been "affordable guitars" ..if you can't afford a Gibson.
-
Really? I've never seen one with bear claw. I'm sure there are some floating around with it but it certainly wasn't used on all of them. Sitka and Bigleaf maple are not highly prized by violin builders. Very few violin builders use domestic lumber. Why on earth would the Asian factories not be able to get that lumber when they don't always have to follow things like the Lacey Act etc.? Originally Posted by daniel kuryliak
You think it might have anything to do with the fact that it says Gibson on the headstock and not necessarily that is an inherently better instrument? There are modern instruments that sound as good or better than Strads but they aren't three hundred years old so they don't have the historical significance (price tag) that the Cremonese instruments have. Originally Posted by daniel kuryliak
Gibson IS mass production. The Gibson factory in Memphis can produce 350 guitars a day. Benedetto produces under 300 a year and Campellone I'm sure produces far less than a 100 a year. So by your own definition the Campellone should be a better instrument (which I would bet it is). Gibson has produced some excellent instruments but to think that no one else has/could build a better instrument is laughable. Originally Posted by daniel kuryliak
-
Well this is my last comment on this particular aspect of the thread... I am fortunate to be able to afford a few Gibsons, unassailably top-notch ones at that, and I still own and play 2 Ibanez guitars. They are perfectly functional guitars and make no excuses. The above comment is elitist and ignorant. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
BTW, having a disclaimer in your sig that you are prone to being socially awkward doesn't give you the right to be pardoned or ignored for doing it. I can imagine if I tried that at work: "Warning, Roger's emails may appear arrogant, impolite, or dismissive of your intelligence; please do not read if you object to such things." Hah! As if.
-
Your opinion of course. Gibson does have a custom shop in Memphis where the L5 and other more expensive guitars Originally Posted by jasonc
are made. I have been there in 2007. As far as bear claw spruce, yes it is still available and maybe Gibson do use
it on certain custom shop models and their flattops out of Boise Idaho.
-
Yes it is rare and very expensive and it can be bought...so there..put that in your pipe and smoke it..or whatever Originally Posted by wintermoon
you are smoking!
-
Sorry for the delay Sam, busy day here. Yes, I do have those days... when I was looking for an alternative for the X-500 I also wanted a different flavor. The Kingpin being a P90 and having such a different construction sounds quite different from the X-500 and sometimes, having the chance of using the one I want, I will take the Kingpin. It's a great guitar and it's much more than a simple replacement for small gigs! But the X-500 is a truly special instrument which the Kingpin is not. Originally Posted by SamBooka
-
I agree! I was not in any way bashing the Ibanez just saying that if one is looking for an L5 sound an tries a GB it will be VERY disappointed... but they're both great guitars, for sure Originally Posted by yebdox
I am very privileged to own both. I love them both, but they are very different and do things the other can't - GB10, crisp, snappy, precise, tolerates louder stage volumes, rock solid, almost never out of tune; L5, warm with sparkles in just the right places, right size for a tall guy like me, catches all those frequencies that you can't get with a pressed top.
But if I had to get rid of every jazz guitar I have except one, the GB10 would be the most versatile. The L5 would have to go first. Glad I don't have to make that choice.
I STILL wish I had the old Ibanez Johnny, though.. it was a nice cross between the two
-
The one he appears to play in this is Ibanez 2461 which is somewhat Gibson Johnny Smith look-a-like but hardly a copy, quite different in several ways. The one that could be considered a JS copy is the 1975 model which has the "lawsuit" Gibson style split diamond. Also Guild and Heritage have made their own Johnny Smith models, quite similar. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Hannu
-
Jorge, even though we don't know each other, I can tell you have good ears and a logical mind. I doubt you could ever offend me. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I agree! I was not in any way bashing the Ibanez just saying that if one is looking for an L5 sound an tries a GB it will be VERY disappointed... but they're both great guitars, for sure
Now, let's all get back to playing the guitars we love and stop worrying about which or whose is best. I can't imagine how boring life would be if all guitars were the same, or to the contrary, if none of them were allowed to resemble any other in any way.
-
I've owned many, many Ibanez guitars over the years. I sold Ibanez guitars for 10 years when I worked retail. They were making models that neither Gibson or Fender could come anywhere near during the 80's. They were reading the trends and innovating much faster than those 2 companies and their quality control was legendary.
I'm really talking about the new wave of players and styles of that era. Ibanez were making a range of guitars with lock down tremolos and new neck profiles and may different shapes. Exciting stuff. They were innovating, big time.
I wont even spend a sentence defending their credibility. Common knowledge.
Back to the original topic.
That Benson clip sounds damn fine to me although I don't chase that particular tone. The clip with Benny Goodman however is more where I'm coming from tone wise.
Here's the thing: if I walked into a local shop and they had an Ibanez JS style and it was not as heavy as a tank and around $2000 I would probably buy it. But I'm not going to import one without playing it and pay top dollar.
If I walked in to a local shop and they had a Gibson JS from the early 60's and it was in good shape I would just buy it.
Then I would have to figure out what street corner or alleyway to set up residence on
.
-
Whoa! Back the truck up! What is this Benny Goodman clip?
-
Here tis, super bright but with lots of body tone.....something you can't roll in with eq. It's actually IN the instrument. Originally Posted by SamBooka
The JS pickup has been unpopular with some because of the brightness but I think that's part of the charm. The highs help define the lows.....and all that.
I think I've mentioned that I played 2 different JS's at Walkin Guitars in Tokyo. I was surprised at the brightness of the electric tone and at the time a little alarmed by it. But after listening to some of my fave recordings I can now hear how that brightness works with the overall sound.
GB has always used lots of tops in his sound but it still sounds warm to me because the "meat and potatoes" of the sound are there as well. The tops adds definition and emphasises his pick attack.
-
Ever since this thread began I have been playing my L-5C with JS floater for hours each day. The pickup responds nicely to tone rolloff (50%) or a bit of volume attenuation. It warms up nicely, letting the chirpy high end drop off. The brightness can be nice for fingerstyle, or with heavier flatwound strings, which considerably warm up the guitar.
Earlier in the week I had 12-52 rounds on the L-5C, now it's wearing 13-53 TI Swings. Both are nice. The flats are just pure classic jazz tone, and certainly sound like Benson or Whitfield (minus my inferior chops of course).
Another thing worth noting is that Benson picks fairly lightly, at least that's what I discern in trying to match his tone somewhat. The JS pickup is not like a PAF in that it doesn't "give" much, i.e. not a lot of compression. So you can't quite dig in and get that PAF chime the way you can with an L-5CES. If you lighten up your stroke but keep a firm attack, you can control the sound nicely and coax a wide dynamic range out of the guitar.
At least that's my story.
-
Apologies for stating what's already obvious, but a big factor involved regarding the brightness you described is probably because it's a floater. My reason for saying this is because of the Howard Roberts I had - in terms of specs it's in many ways a 175 with a longer scale length - the body shape is exactly the same, apart from the different soundhole. But heaps more brighter than a 175, and the pickup was a full paf but floating. It always felt hard to tame in terms of brightness, but when recorded it sounded great, with a complex tone full of... character (typed that word yet again, lol). Originally Posted by Philco
-
Hey, why do we have to live on street corners? What about starting a co- housing community of jazz guitar players? Under the rules of Jazz Communism, we could pool our resources and all share a bevy of dream guitars. But the first guy who forgets to wash his hands gets voted off the island. Komrads? Elder flower children? Any one? Maybe a blood oath. Or we marry each other's sisters. Or take a vow of poverty. Or renunciation of A minor pentatonics. Originally Posted by Philco
Then I would have to figure out what street corner or alleyway to set up residence on.
-
Originally Posted by yebdox
Well...............the part about the girls sounds interesting enough I guess.
So let me get this straight. We all go in some pool with a girl named Bevy. Sounds promising.
There's a band playing called Jazz Communism. Do they play songs I know? Then we all wash our hand and some guy called Konrad gives flowers to the children and so on and so forth.
Do I get to keep the Johnny Smith guitar?
I'm not giving it to Konrad. Don't like the look of him.
Him and his bloody sisters.
It's getting complicated.
Let's just go to the pub instead.
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos