Pacific Jazz-era Joe Pass...

**lesyeuxnoirs** · 03-24-2021, 09:06 AM

Armed with a new set of headphones, I found myself revisiting some early Joe Pass recordings this morning

Specifically Joy Spring and For Django

Quite aside from the wonderful playing (for me, some of his finest), I found myself loving his tone here (which I don’t always)

Assume this was a 175 by this point but what about the amp?

I know he famously used Polytone, but would that have been the case in 63/64? Did they even exist that early on?

Apologies if this is woefully ignorant

Couldn’t find this info on existing threads.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-24-2021, 09:12 AM

Probably a tube amp, whatever was in the studio.

There was some real care put into his sound on those records. It's a shame a lot of his later stuff seems like it was recorded quickly on a shoestring budget. A lot of times it sounds to me like he's plugged straight into the board, like on "Eximous."

**grahambop** · 03-24-2021, 09:31 AM

‘Intercontinental’ has great tone, possibly helped by German engineering.

**Tal_175** · 03-24-2021, 10:22 AM

I also like his tone on the "Catch me" album.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-24-2021, 04:30 PM

When he had good tone, he had very, very good tone.

Bringing up the issue of some of his Virtuoso recordings...has been discussed and debated ad nauseum...but my only comment is that the acoustic volume of the 175 is not that great, and TBH it's rather thin. I can't believe miccing the acoustic sound could have been the only input for those tracks.

Anyone have any more specifics about this?

**lawson-stone** · 03-24-2021, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

When he had good tone, he had very, very good tone.

Bringing up the issue of some of his Virtuoso recordings...has been discussed and debated ad nauseum...but my only comment is that the acoustic volume of the 175 is not that great, and TBH it's rather thin. I can't believe miccing the acoustic sound could have been the only input for those tracks.

Anyone have any more specifics about this?

I really like your first sentence. Yes, some JP recordings have less than the best tone, but I think most of his later recordings have wonderful tone. The one with Roy Clark is beautiful. His Christmas album also. His "Portraits of Duke Ellington" I think is classic ES175 tone, more center weighted and not dark and muffled. "Blues for Fred" is gorgeous, as is "Joe Pass in Hamburg." It's very little known, but an album called "My Song" also has in my opinion rich, beautiful ES175 tone.

So yes, when it's right, it's really, really right, and I think that's actually more often than not.

**neatomic** · 03-24-2021, 06:05 PM

joe got the es-175 in '63...a gift from a music admirer...

his work with his "left" hand man- guitarist john pisano on for django is wonderful...pacifc jazz/world pacific was a great west coast label...owner/producer dick bock...very eclectic & advanced!

here's original european lp cover

cheers

**ragman1** · 03-25-2021, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

‘Intercontinental’ has great tone, possibly helped by German engineering.

Seconded. Not just the tone but the great energy on that album. Certainly one of his best if not the best. He did that very, very slow version of Nuages on it... perfection. As was his Bossa stuff.

**kris** · 03-25-2021, 07:59 AM

I have a lot of Joe Pass Cds. I like his playing and sounding on all Cds.
Due to the variety of sounds, these recordings are more interesting and do not bore the listener. Their musical language is always recognizable and this is the most important thing for me.

**Stringswinger** · 03-25-2021, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by kris

I have a lot of Joe Pass Cds. I like his playing and sounding on all Cds.
Due to the variety of sounds, these recordings are more interesting and do not bore the listener. Their musical language is always recognizable and this is the most important thing for me.

+1 That said, the tone on Intercontinental is, IMO as good as jazz guitar tone gets.

**Tal_175** · 03-25-2021, 10:57 AM

These are among my favorite Joe Pass tones along with the intercontinental album. I find the Joy Spring album tone a bit too thunky for my taste.

**lawson-stone** · 03-25-2021, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by kris

I have a lot of Joe Pass Cds. I like his playing and sounding on all Cds.
Due to the variety of sounds, these recordings are more interesting and do not bore the listener. Their musical language is always recognizable and this is the most important thing for me.

Agree! I liked it that Joe was willing to play under any conditions and share his music even when some abstract standard of perfection in tone wasn't met. He played it and put it out there.

I still listen to him and am stunned speechless. The first time I heard him playing it was on the radio and I was driving. I almost had a wreck. I had to pull over and listen. It was "Stomping at the Savoy" from the Virtuoso Live album.

To me, there is Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

**lawson-stone** · 03-25-2021, 11:23 AM

One of my favorites, but this whole album is spectacular. Ellington played in a bass-drums-guitar trio. Well recorded.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-25-2021, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Agree! I liked it that Joe was willing to play under any conditions and share his music even when some abstract standard of perfection in tone wasn't met. He played it and put it out there.

I still listen to him and am stunned speechless. The first time I heard him playing it was on the radio and I was driving. I almost had a wreck. I had to pull over and listen. It was "Stomping at the Savoy" from the Virtuoso Live album.

To me, there is Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

I listened to that song yesterday.

There are a lot of songs out there that are not obvious for chord-melody, and this is one of them. (I realize there are a lot of great players out there that have no problem with this, but my primitive Neanderthal brain has trouble.) I am always amazed at Joe's inventiveness with his fingerings and picking, and never losing the rhythm. Or the tone, such as it is. That's why he's the man.

**lawson-stone** · 03-25-2021, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I listened to that song yesterday.

There are a lot of songs out there that are not obvious for chord-melody, and this is one of them. (I realize there are a lot of great players out there that have no problem with this, but my primitive Neanderthal brain has trouble.) I am always amazed at Joe's inventiveness with his fingerings and picking, and never losing the rhythm. Or the tone, such as it is. That's why he's the man.

I guess the tone issue has made me realize that for Joe, it's the playing, it's the music. Period.

**Stringswinger** · 03-25-2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

To me, there is Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

I am almost there with you. To me there is Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-25-2021, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I am almost there with you. To me there is Wes Montgomery and Grant Green and Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

FIFY. You're welcome. ;-)

**kris** · 03-25-2021, 01:30 PM

What about Django Reinhardt?

**Stringswinger** · 03-25-2021, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

FIFY. You're welcome. ;-)

My third would be Kenny Burrell. So we are close....but no cigar.

**Stringswinger** · 03-25-2021, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by kris

What about Django Reinhardt?

I am a fan of late Django stuff, but to me his early stuff is a bit too "old fashioned". When I need some "comfort" jazz guitar in my ears, it is Joe or Wes.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-25-2021, 01:48 PM

Now y'all got me wondering who my top5 or 10 would actually be.

I THINK I'LL START A THREAD!

**lawson-stone** · 03-25-2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I am almost there with you. To me there is Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass, and then everyone else.

True.. there is a level at which it becomes senseless to rank them. Joe's music hits me harder than Wes, mainly because Joe played in so many varied contexts, from solo, to solo accompaniment of vocalists, trombonists, to duos and trios, on to larger ensembles, electric, acoustic, 12-string. I would never say he was better than Wes, but perhaps more fully realized? He performed and excelled in more diverse settings than most jazz guitarists.

**John A.** · 03-25-2021, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

True.. there is a level at which it becomes senseless to rank them. Joe's music hits me harder than Wes, mainly because Joe played in so many varied contexts, from solo, to solo accompaniment of vocalists, trombonists, to duos and trios, on to larger ensembles, electric, acoustic, 12-string. I would never say he was better than Wes, but perhaps more fully realized? He performed and excelled in more diverse settings than most jazz guitarists.

But Joe didn't really compose, while Wes was a very strong and interesting writer (if not all that prolific). To me, that gets a lot of weight on the "fully realized" scorecard. For me, there also this ineffable beauty to the way he played, integrated with r&b/gospel-rooted groove and energy, which just hits me differently from the way most others do. For the most part I also prefer the feel of the groups he played with. Not saying one is better than another -- I mean nobody is better than OP and Ray Brown, but I gravitate more to the post-bop/hard-bop/soul-jazz feel of the groups he recorded with. Especially the stuff with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, and Jimmy Cobb. And oh to have heard him play with Trane and McCoy Tyner! If only the much rumored recording would surface. As anomalous as that may seem, I can actually imagine it working, but can't really imagine JP fitting with that aesthetic. OTOH, it's also hard to imagine Wes doing What JP did as a solo performer or with Ella.

John

**grahambop** · 03-25-2021, 02:31 PM

Wes wasn’t always recorded that well either. ‘The Incredible Jazz Guitar’ is a brilliant record, but his guitar sounds like it was recorded inside a tin can or something.

**lawson-stone** · 03-25-2021, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

But Joe didn't really compose, while Wes was a very strong and interesting writer (if not all that prolific). To me, that gets a lot of weight on the "fully realized" scorecard. For me, there also this ineffable beauty to the way he played, integrated with r&b/gospel-rooted groove and energy, which just hits me differently from the way most others do. For the most part I also prefer the feel of the groups he played with. Not saying one is better than another -- I mean nobody is better than OP and Ray Brown, but I gravitate more to the post-bop/hard-bop/soul-jazz feel of the groups he recorded with. Especially the stuff with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, and Jimmy Cobb. And oh to have heard him play with Trane and McCoy Tyner! If only the much rumored recording would surface. As anomalous as that may seem, I can actually imagine it working, but can't really imagine JP fitting with that aesthetic. OTOH, it's also hard to imagine Wes doing What JP did as a solo performer or with Ella.

John

Actually Joe did some composing. Every tune on Virtuoso III was his composition.

By "fully realized" I'm thinking of distinct contexts. I think JP nailed it in many more contexts that many other players.