Gibson L-5 Wes vs Byrdland

**letsjam** · 02-17-2010, 05:31 PM

I have an opportunity to trade a 2003 Gibson Custom Shop L-5 Wes Montgomery vintage sunburst flamed maple back & sides single humbucker for a natural finish 2006 Byrdland with kinda plain wood grain and two humbuckers. Both are in mint new condition. The shorter scale of the Byrd intrigues me as I have a very short little finger but it would not be my only short scale guitar. I'm an intermediate but motivated jazz learner. I've been told that the longer scale on the L-5 makes for a much better tone coupled with the larger body. I've got an L-4 and a 335 also. Any thoughts??

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 02-17-2010, 05:40 PM

I think you've got awfully nice guitars for a jazz learner.

**JohnW400** · 02-17-2010, 05:43 PM

I owned a Byrdland back in the 90's. IT was so-so. The neck was definately too small for me. Not only scale wise but nut width. The Wes is a nice guitar. I'm sure it has a decent acoustic voice with one pup, no? I believe you get a 'woodier ' tone from the L-5

The plain wood grain on a natural guitar has me wondering though. I mean usually Gibson reserves the more figured wood for the blondes , hence part of the up charge (wine or cherry being the cheapest). I would expect the flame on the back to really shine and not just the neck.

Not a trade I would make but we're talking about you....

**SamBooka** · 02-17-2010, 05:44 PM

Look for both guitars on GBase and compare the prices. If they are in the same ballpark it is all player preference. Everything I would like about the Wes is everythign I would hate about the BLand. Everthing you state in your post is conventional wisdom (or the internet equivalent).

Can you try before you buy? As i mentioned, all other things being equal they are two different beasts. Scale is one thing, do you play live and is feedback going to be an issue if you keep the Wes. etc etc

TommyD · 02-17-2010, 05:48 PM

Byrdlands have a spotty approval rating because of their short scale (24"). For many, me included, and I do not have large hands, the Byrdland fretboard is really constraining as you ascend. Playing up around and above the octave is not a pleasant experience.
I would never trade an L5 for a Byrdland. Oh. and I too have a short pinkie.
Tommy

**randyc** · 02-17-2010, 07:33 PM

Ditto, I'm only 5' 6" with a stretched handspan (tip of thumb to tip of little finger) of 8-1/2 inches and I can't work with that Byrdland scale. The L-5 needs to stay with you; as you progress in ability, you'll come to appreciate "that" sound more and more.

I don't "get" the Byrdland actually. A shallow-body L-5, why? And combined with the short scale? They don't even really look proportional, compared with other guitars

The only guys that play those guitars are Anthony Wilson, Wilkins (?) and Jeff Golub, I think.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 02-17-2010, 07:36 PM

Don't forget Ted Nugent. I like his taste in amps better: Super Twin Reverbs, and lots of them!

**X-500** · 02-17-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Don't forget Ted Nugent. I like his taste in amps better: Super Twin Reverbs, and lots of them!

Didn't he play a ES-175 too? Good God, I saw him in 1976 (another life). As I recall, he spat all over the stage

... Oh, and he played guitar too ...

Wango Tango

**customxke** · 02-18-2010, 02:53 PM

Pretty sure a guy (who played on my favorite jazz guitar album, "Jazz Winds from a New Direction") named Hank Garland may have played a Byrdland.

**derek** · 02-18-2010, 03:15 PM

From a financial stand point alone, it is a bad move. A Wes L-5 is more expensive, and retains its resale value much more than Byrdlands. As guys have pointed out The Guitar That Hank And Charlie Built, is pretty quirky, and is not as universally accepted as an L-5.

If you want a Birdie, I would recommend checking the bay for the Epi Elitist version. Though discontinued, the Elitist line was MIK, and rivaled Gibby in quality. Dropping in a couple of Classic 57s, and you have a wonderful example of that model for around $1k. Good luck

**JohnW400** · 02-18-2010, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by derek

From a financial stand point alone, it is a bad move. A Wes L-5 is more expensive, and retains its resale value much more than Byrdlands. As guys have pointed out The Guitar That Hank And Charlie Built, is pretty quirky, and is not as universally accepted as an L-5.

If you want a Birdie, I would recommend checking the bay for the Epi Elitist version. Though discontinued, the Elitist line was MIK, and rivaled Gibby in quality. Dropping in a couple of Classic 57s, and you have a wonderful example of that model for around $1k. Good luck

Derek,

Somebody got hip to these and they're a bit more. I saw one used for about $1600 some time ago.

**derek** · 02-18-2010, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Derek,

Somebody got hip to these and they're a bit more. I saw one used for about $1600 some time ago.

No kidding? There was a blonde here at the MF Clearance Ctr (since closed) for around $1400. It had some sort of very minor blemish on it, but otherwise, hang tags and all, it was new. I was tempted, as it really was a wonderful guitar, particularly for that price.

**hot ford coupe** · 02-18-2010, 09:34 PM

Heck, I had a 61 Byrdland for a while with 2 PAF pickups. That guitar became a pain in the neck after a while. I have really small hands. My ring size is about a 7 if that means anything. The neck on the
byrdland was narrower that the L5 (which I also had) and my fingers were constantly running into each other especially higher up on the neck. I definitely would keep the L5. I still wich I had mine. I regret deeply selling my L5. The Byrdland I was glad to get rid of.

**NSJ** · 02-18-2010, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by derek

From a financial stand point alone, it is a bad move. A Wes L-5 is more expensive, and retains its resale value much more than Byrdlands.

I. Good luck

I don't know about the comparison, but I've seen that a new L5-Wes instantly loses about $3-4K in value as soon as you go out the door with it. I.e., the inflated Gibson price is wiped away, in terms of resale value. I've generally seen recent USED Wes L5s go for 5500-6000 USD. I.e., far less than what was originally paid for them.

**randyc** · 02-18-2010, 10:39 PM

You're right, NSJ, which is what most people seem to miss when they screech about high Gibson prices. You DON'T have to pay the "new" asking price, it's ridiculous! I'd start at 40% off and let myself be negotiated up to maybe 25% off.

Once upon a time, I walked into a music store, saw a pretty new natural finish Les Paul Deluxe hanging on the wall for $1100. For laughs, I offered $600 and the offer was accepted after the "I have to go talk to my manager first".

Heck, there's nothing to lose unless you seriously lowball, which tends to lose tempers

**derek** · 02-18-2010, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I don't know about the comparison, but I've seen that a new L5-Wes instantly loses about $3-4K in value as soon as you go out the door with it. I.e., the inflated Gibson price is wiped away, in terms of resale value. I've generally seen recent USED Wes L5s go for 5500-6000 USD. I.e., far less than what was originally paid for them.

Yeah, I see the same, but Byrdies generally don't do that well.

**juuso1** · 02-19-2010, 06:43 AM

Hi,
Like more my wes L-5 than byrdland. Have played only Epi Elitis byrdis, but short scale and tiny neck is not for my fingers. Prices are what they are, bye or not to bye.... But play and sound is most important. Cheers juuso1

**JohnW400** · 02-19-2010, 10:06 AM

FWIW,

I've seen Roy Clark use Byrdlands a lot (old Hee Haw re-runs

). I think the Heritage Roy Clark Model is basically the same as the Gibson version

**letsjam** · 02-19-2010, 07:49 PM

Thanks everyone for the replies!! Great info. The used Byrdland is for sale at music store for $4950 plus almost 9% tax. They claim that it's an $11K guitar new. Thus, it's a "bargain" at $5500 out the door. I paid $4K for the 2003 L-5 Wes in 2005 out the door brand new with case, warranty, the works. I never considered the narrow width of the neck on the Byrdland. I'm learning to work around not being able to hit all of the notes on a difficult stretch chord in the lower register. Thanks everyone again for setting me straight. This was my first post on this site!! I did consider the Epi Elitist Byrdland but they are discontinued and sell for a street price of $1900. Thus, still expensive and now hard to find. I saw a used 80s Byrdland years ago in a store for $3500. Glad I didn't buy it either. If you look in the Vintage Guitar 2010 Price Guide, the L-5 Wes is valued at $5500, the Byrdland at $4500. Yet the guitar store says that the Wes is not worth a trade.

**brad4d8** · 03-08-2010, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by customxke

Pretty sure a guy (who played on my favorite jazz guitar album, "Jazz Winds from a New Direction") named Hank Garland may have played a Byrdland.

Well, considering the land in the name came from his input into the design (along with Billy Byrd from the Texas Troubadours), he probably did.

Brad

**letsjam** · 03-08-2010, 05:42 PM

The store that had the used blonde Byrdland that I started this thread with sold it for $4500 to a beginner. His instructor played it for a few minutes and advised the kid to return it because of the short scale. So, it's back on the hook for $4900 + 8% tax + $50 for the case. It is gorgeous and absolutely mint. Nice flamed maple back and sides.

**SamBooka** · 03-08-2010, 05:53 PM

I was thinking of this thread this weekend.
I put my 59 Musicmaster back together yesterday.
22.5 scale. Amazing tone out of the guitar but otherwise unplayable.
Heavy strings and tuned to E# helped a bit but the frets are too close together for me. I could get used to playing it.. but why would i?

**JohnW400** · 03-08-2010, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by letsjam

The store that had the used blonde Byrdland that I started this thread with sold it for $4500 to a beginner. His instructor played it for a few minutes and advised the kid to return it because of the short scale. So, it's back on the hook for $4900 + 8% tax + $50 for the case. It is gorgeous and absolutely mint. Nice flamed maple back and sides.

Knowing that right there I would walk away.

If you like that style then look for an ES-350T. They are laminate, 24" scale an sound great. You can find them used.

Or keep the L-5 and not give into the temptation of GAS.

**hot ford coupe** · 03-08-2010, 06:39 PM

I would tend to avoid the GAS unless you were a real dyed in the wool guitar and muusic historian type. Otherwise, it just ain't worth it. The ES 350 idea sounds like a good solution. The guitar I play has a 24 and 3/4 inch scale. That works great.

chrisp · 03-09-2010, 05:17 AM

Gents,

The Epi Byrdland and the modern Gibson Byrdland in question do not have narrow necks. The Byrdland design originally included a narrow neck, and in the world of web opinion this lives on as an enduring claim about all Byrdland guitars.

It may be that comments about the neck width are not based on actually handling the guitars?

The guitars have typical widths and string spacing at the nut (1 11/16") and bridge.

The scales are 23 1/2 as mentioned, and not 24".

The Epi Byrdland is not MIK.

The Epi Byrdlands are MIJ by Terada. In my opinion they had far better workmanship than the Gibson Byrdlands. But the admiration for Gibson manufactured guitars is enduring, if sometimes hard to understand.

Even allowing for scale, the Byrdland PU's are quite close together. The neck PU sound is quite a bit brighter than many players expect. In my opinion, it is unfortunate that the Byrdland neck is not a least one fret shorter and squared off at the bottom of the FB to allow the neck PU to be farther up the neck.

The current going rate for a minty-ish Epi Byrdland is $1,600 to $1,900. The MAP on them was $1,999 up until late '08 when they were discontinued and sold off by GC (in all its various names) for I think $1,699. It might have been $1,799, I forget.