Gibson L-5 Wes vs Byrdland

[JohnW400]

Gents,

The Epi Byrdland and the modern Gibson Byrdland in question do not have narrow necks. The Byrdland design originally included a narrow neck, and in the world of web opinion this lives on as an enduring claim about all Byrdland guitars.

It may be that comments about the neck width are not based on actually handling the guitars?

The guitars have typical widths and string spacing at the nut (1 11/16") and bridge.

The scales are 23 1/2 as mentioned, and not 24".

The Epi Byrdland is not MIK.

The Epi Byrdlands are MIJ by Terada. In my opinion they had far better workmanship than the Gibson Byrdlands. But the admiration for Gibson manufactured guitars is enduring, if sometimes hard to understand.

Even allowing for scale, the Byrdland PU's are quite close together. The neck PU sound is quite a bit brighter than many players expect. In my opinion, it is unfortunate that the Byrdland neck is not a least one fret shorter and squared off at the bottom of the FB to allow the neck PU to be farther up the neck.

The current going rate for a minty-ish Epi Byrdland is $1,600 to $1,900. The MAP on them was $1,999 up until late '08 when they were discontinued and sold off by GC (in all its various names) for I think $1,699. It might have been $1,799, I forget.

Doesn't the L-5 25.5" scale with a 1 3/4" nut? I forget.

Thanks for the information about the factory. It's a shame the model got discontinued. It's my understanding that Gibson has discontinued several archtops and semi hollows recently. Too bad.

[chrisp]

L-5 25.5" scale 1 11/16" nut

[patyak]

I have an opportunity to trade a 2003 Gibson Custom Shop L-5 Wes Montgomery vintage sunburst flamed maple back & sides single humbucker for a natural finish 2006 Byrdland with kinda plain wood grain and two humbuckers. Both are in mint new condition. The shorter scale of the Byrd intrigues me as I have a very short little finger but it would not be my only short scale guitar. I'm an intermediate but motivated jazz learner. I've been told that the longer scale on the L-5 makes for a much better tone coupled with the larger body. I've got an L-4 and a 335 also. Any thoughts??

I have a 1998 L5 CT with 2 in body pickups and 24 1/2" scale which I bought in 1998. In 2002 I bought a 73 Super 400 with correct 25 1/2" scale and recently traded a 330TD and a 75 355 for a 66 Johnny Smith with the 25" scale.
Once I built my strength up for the Super 400 that 25 1/2" scale is perfect and can't stand the L5CT's 24 1/2" so it is now up for sale
My Strat has 25 1/2 and that is great to play. The Johnny is also great-love the floating pups and the 25" scale seems good for me. I had a Barney Kessell w/ 25 1/2" scale and it was great but would not stay in tune-needed money 2 years ago and sold it.
The acoustic qualities of the JS are great and also fine amped

in short playing the longer necks of JS, Super 400, and Strat is much easier for me than the shorter necks of the L5CT, a Les Paul Standard or a 335-345

[oldane]

FWIW, despite having small hands, I prefer 25.5'' scale and 1.75'' nut width. I have that on all the three guitars I use mostly these days. 24.75'' and 1 11/16'' would also do, but a Birdland would be too far from what I'm used to. Wes was once quoted saying that he wanted nothing but a standard spec guitar because then he could just borrow somebody elses axe if something happened to his own.

[feet]

nice to see that some things haven't changed over the years here. you guys are still a bunch of little tiny baby girls. i have a 23.5" guitar and a 29" guitar and a 34" bass (and a few in between) and i can play them all just fine. very poorly, mind you, but i embarrass myself with the greatest of ease.

i guess this wasn't the most scientific test, but the old tape measure says the first fret is 23.5" away from the bridge on a standard 24.75" guitar. the 13th fret on the byrdland is the same size as the 13th fret on a 24.75. so put a capo on the 1st fret and play. see what happens. hell, i can capo on the 7th and 9th frets on a byrdland and play just fine. but i am a horrible and perverse person, and that may have something to do with it.

but yeah, the sound isn't for everyone.

[oldane]

nice to see that some things haven't changed over the years here. you guys are still a bunch of little tiny baby girls.

I don't doubt your macho strength and adaptability, but we are not taking about manhood tests here. We are talking about personal preferencies - now that we are so lucky to have the choice between various scale lengths and nut widths.

[Broyale]

I don't know about the comparison, but I've seen that a new L5-Wes instantly loses about $3-4K in value as soon as you go out the door with it. I.e., the inflated Gibson price is wiped away, in terms of resale value. I've generally seen recent USED Wes L5s go for 5500-6000 USD. I.e., far less than what was originally paid for them.

Thank God.

[feet]

we are not taking about manhood tests here.

i thought we were on a guitar message board

no, i'm just funning you guys. i have preferences, too; 24.75, i guess. but different guitars sound different and feel different and make me do different things on them. i just thought it was funny that whenever and wherever i read about a byrdland, i will invariably read about someone complaining about the scale being too small to play. it never fails.

seriously, though, the small scale isn't a big deal. its fun!

can't help you with the skinny nuts, though. never played one enough to have a real opinion, though i can't imagine it would go well.

[helios]

Gibson Byrdlands on Ebay have sold for: $3200--$5000 recently (Depending on condition). 50's & 60's ones of course more.

Epiphone Byrdlands on Ebay: $1900--$2450 (most recently sold ones have looked pretty nice).

I checked "completed listings" for sold items, NOT asking price. I paid $2300 for my Epi Byrdland, but it looked new.

[Bluedawg]

I don't know about the comparison, but I've seen that a new L5-Wes instantly loses about $3-4K in value as soon as you go out the door with it. I.e., the inflated Gibson price is wiped away, in terms of resale value. I've generally seen recent USED Wes L5s go for 5500-6000 USD. I.e., far less than what was originally paid for them.

I know I'm responding to a three year old Zombie thread .....


But I paid less than $7K for a new L5 WES in Vintage Sunburst in 2011 and could have had a new blonde L5 WES for less than $8K ....

So if I can sell my L5 WES for $5500 I would not be too upset .... I'd only sell it if I really needed the cash ... i don't plan on selling it

What you pay for a new one depends on who you're buying it from and how much they are willing to deal

[Broyale]

I'm saving towards a used L5 Wes Montgomery or CES so this is great news.

[oldane]

Even allowing for scale, the Byrdland PU's are quite close together. The neck PU sound is quite a bit brighter than many players expect. In my opinion, it is unfortunate that the Byrdland neck is not a least one fret shorter and squared off at the bottom of the FB to allow the neck PU to be farther up the neck.

+1. I don't know if I find the sound brighter but it certainly is more compact and midrangy ("colder"?) than say an L5.

This is my pet subject. IMHO, the placement of the pickup means quite a lot to the sound (which of course is the very reason for having guitars with more than one PU). The difference in amplified sound between the ES175 and the L4 is - still IMHO - due to the fact that the neck PU on the L4 is closer to the neck than on the ES175 (more than to the difference between plywood/solid top). The general consensus is that the L4 sounds sweeter and more spread than an ES175 which sounds more compact and punchy (neck PUs of course). When I ordered a guitar from Tom Painter two years ago, I specified the PU to be placed right under the imaginary 24'th fret - ½" closer to the neck than usual on his guitars. The sound is indeed sweet, somewhat like a Gibson L5 WesMo.

[Bluedawg]

That's the truth. In 2011 when I was looking, I was offered a brand-new 2011 L5 Wes VSB at $6579 by a Gibson dealer. Not blemished. Not an in-store demo. Not B-stock. Not old inventory that the dealer was trying to move out desperately to free some cash. No. Just a regular deal on a fresh out of the box from the factory new Gibson L-5 Wes VSB with no issues. I did not even have to negotiate and the dealer was not in difficulty. I found a used 2002 L-5 Wes Heart Inlay shortly after for $5500 and thought that I would put the $1079 saved in my pocket.

In 2002, the 2002 L-5 Wes Heart Inlay would have sold brand-new for about $5000 new. So, the seller got about $4500 back minus the dealer's commission. $500 is not too much to pay for owning and using the guitar for nine years. It works out to $0.15 a day.

That's a good price ...

As I understand the MSRP verses dealer costs on these high end guitars .... the dealers can give very large discounts on these and still make more money than selling something like a Gibson LP Studio at full MSRP.

Of course every dealer has their own business model and preferred approach to pricing ....

[DC Ron]

FWIW,

I've seen Roy Clark use Byrdlands a lot (old Hee Haw re-runs ). I think the Heritage Roy Clark Model is basically the same as the Gibson version

The Heritage Roy Clark has a 24 3/4" scale but mine has the THINNEST neck ever. Much more comfortable to play than I would have thought.

[fumblefingers]

I don't know about the comparison, but I've seen that a new L5-Wes instantly loses about $3-4K in value as soon as you go out the door with it. I.e., the inflated Gibson price is wiped away, in terms of resale value. I've generally seen recent USED Wes L5s go for 5500-6000 USD. I.e., far less than what was originally paid for them.

well firstly, take 35% off MSRP to calculate "what was originally paid" (assuming a smart buyer).

and sure, once you take it from the store, its "used" even if you play it less than the guys at the store or customers trying it out. it ain't fair but that's how it works.

and if you want to make money on a Gibson archtop, buy a popular carved model (L5 or Super 400) and hold it for at least 15 years. (unless Obama's in office, then hold it until death. )

[Jimmy Mack]

So what's my 1981 L5CES (Norlin with the volute - which you would never know is there if you didn't look) worth?

It's a mighty fine L5 and a great guitar. Honestly now - doesn't a volute add a little more mass to the neck/peghead, and strengthen it? What's the fuss? Snob appeal?

I believe volutes were an old old feature on quality instruments. Gibson brought them "back" because their teeny tiny necks (esp. SG's) were snapping at the headstocks!

I never had a volute slow me down.

[yebdox]

I had a brand new Byrdland in '76, which I loved, but in retrospect, had I not been forced to sell it soon after, the short scale would have driven me away. The pickup placement does make for a brighter tone, as well.

[boptotheleft]

I have never seen a thread that dismiss Byrdland more than this one..why? because it is not fat and clumsy looking as my Heritage Eagle(L-5 dimensions at all specs)? oh.. maybe because a Byrd has a short scale which suitable for a "beginner"? You gotta be kidding.

Here is a take from a Gibson Byrdland owner for ya:

1)23.5 scale: Not a problem at all. I can execute things I could only dream of doing on a 24.75(my ES335) or a 25.5(Eagle).

2)Nut width: Not even an issue-picking wise and chords wise.

3)The close pick ups: I guess that is a matter of taste. The Byrd has a little more twang on the bridge PUP than say..a 335. Would make a nice rockabilly option.

But yet again, we are talking straight up bop here..right? So..the neck pup is indeed leaning towards a blend of 175 and a GB 10 if you pick between the two pups. Kinda treble-ish with a little "chutzpa". When picking above the PUP, you get a nice mellow traditional pure sound that is so nice(IMHO). Playing a bit ahead of the neck pup can be a great option for Freddy Green style comping and you will have more than enough acoustic properties to work with. Again, if you look for a jazz guitar for its acoustic qualities, that not a Byrd NOR an L-5 CES should be your choice from the first place. For that matter, I would shop around for a guitar that has a floating pup with an ebony bridge.

In conclusion: Comparing an L-5 to a Byrd is like comparing apples to oranges. Some like this, some like that. They can however complement each other for the working swinger, as long as you don't ask them to speak and sound the same.

[2bornot2bop]

"Clumsy looking" is in the eye of the beholder. If you thought your Eagle appeared so clumsy why on earth would you buy such a guitar

[rrbasic]

I worked at a guitar shop in the Detroit area in the early to mid eighties and Ted Nugent brought
in, what I believe to be, his original Birdland . That was a wonderful guitar
it just sang, it sounded great acoustically as well as when it was plugged in. I
think he was playing PRS guitars at the time but was considering switching back to the Birdland.

[jukeboxjones]

I own a 1956 350T. P90's and bigsby. It has a tunamatic bridge fitted and is an extremely versatile guitar for many styles. The width at the nut is small and takes some getting used to but persevere and it is a very rewarding experience. Jimmy page has a custom shop 350T of the same type. If you want the classic jazz tone then go with an old 175 as they are still relatively cheap and obtainable. Herb Ellis did quite well with his as did Joe Pass.