Things Gibson never got right!

[lawson-stone]

You're missing my point. Many people love the sound of the 175 as is. If you change things, it won't sound like a 175 anymore. No "sacred" bs about it. I'm not saying you can't change it, I'm saying if you change it, you change the sound people are looking for that there's literally 500 threads about here.

Of course, I always love a good "I bought this guitar that's not a 175, how do I get it sound like joe pass on joy spring?" thread

Also, Gibson has a 16" guitar with the 175 shape and the pickup at the end of the fingerboard, it's the L4ces. If it's really that significant to move the pickup, I wonder why L4ces's aren't just overwhelming the market.

[md54]

Also, Gibson has a 16" guitar with the 175 shape and the pickup at the end of the fingerboard, it's the L4ces. If it's really that significant to move the pickup, I wonder why L4ces's aren't just overwhelming the market.

Probably the vast price difference I suspect.

[Stringswinger]

Leaving the ES-175 PUP placement aside (I have three 175's and the design works for me. If I can meet the cat who engineered it in the afterlife, I'm going to buy him a drink ), I think Gibson has made mistakes like all folks in business do. IMO, the biggest one is dropping archtop production. Even if a market has changed, it seems like you still want to be in the sector that created the reputation of your company.

Gibson made some production changes when the bean counters made profits more important than quality in the mid 60's through the mid 70's. Most of these were abandoned due to the market not reacting well. For the most part, I am glad that they abandoned those changes (I do not like 14 degree pegheads, volutes, amplifier knobs, bright pickups, etc.) But I like one change they made in those times that was reversed, plating in chrome rather than straight nickel. Chrome is more maintenance free, and by nature, I am somewhat lazy.

[grahambop]

There was that late custom 175 for Joe Pass, don’t know why they didn’t produce it, it might have been quite popular?

[md54]

You're missing my point. Many people love the sound of the 175 as is. If you change things, it won't sound like a 175 anymore. No "sacred" bs about it. I'm not saying you can't change it, I'm saying if you change it, you change the sound people are looking for that there's literally 500 threads about here.

Of course, I always love a good "I bought this guitar that's not a 175, how do I get it sound like joe pass on joy spring?" thread

Gibson has changed many things about the 175 from day one. Pretty much everything from pickups to laminate thickness etc etc. Too many to list.
Joe Pass had a custom shop 175 style guitar made for him to his exact requirements at the end of his career.Thinner body and the pickup right against the fretboard. He is well documented and photographed playing this guitar before his death. It was absolutely his choice of features.
So maybe Joe Pass was looking for a better Joe Pass sound than the one he had on Joy Spring!

[Tal_175]

There was that late custom 175 for Joe Pass, don’t know why they didn’t produce it, it might have been quite popular?

Heritage also makes a similar spec guitar as that custom 175 except it's carved maple. These guitars have shallower depth which would make them brighter with less lows than the full depth ES 175. So the pickup placement flush to the neck is to compensate for that I presume. Just my guess. Sadowsky Jim Hall is also a similar concept to this custom model.

[Doctor Jeff]

Name 1 respected jazz guitarist who built a reputation playing a strat.
I agree that the 175 is the archetypal jazzer. Doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been better.

Allen Holdsworth and Steve Morse have both played Strat-style guitars extensively during their career. (Though Morse started out on a FrankenTele with at least 5 pickups...) I also recall that Mike Stern started out on a Strat, but I can only find pictures of him with a Tele or Yamaha Pacifica. I'm sure there are a lot more I am not thinking of right now.

It seems like criticizing a Gibson 175 is a bit like saying Mother Teresa had a dodgy reputation on this forum!

Is Christopher Hitchens a member of JGO?

My own belief is that when they made the ES175 they just used the ES125 as a template and gave it a cutaway. Everything else they left alone, including the pickup location.

That makes sense to me, and I believe I have read that somewhere. All they did was add a cutaway--no need to set up new molds and jigs. Gibson was nothing if not resourceful--used woods left over from discontinued models in existing models, etc.

[lawson-stone]

Gibson has changed many things about the 175 from day one. Pretty much everything from pickups to laminate thickness etc etc. Too many to list.
Joe Pass had a custom shop 175 style guitar made for him to his exact requirements at the end of his career.Thinner body and the pickup right against the fretboard. He is well documented and photographed playing this guitar before his death. It was absolutely his choice of features.
So maybe Joe Pass was looking for a better Joe Pass sound than the one he had on Joy Spring!

No doubt I'm in a minority, but I like the sound of Joe's old 1960's ES175 better than that of the new custom model. Just me, but I like Joy Spring, For Django, etc. more.

[jads57]

Well they seem to be doing something right,since they've sold and co tinge to sell so many guitars! I think with all of the great boutique and smaller guitar companies, if you can't find what you want you should look to play another instrument !

[whiskey02]

Gnappi,
Nice list and point(s) but I feel rather strongly that if it's semi hollow, it's the antithesis of what makes a LP a LP.

[vinlander]

For me that would be the use of robot tuners

[ronjazz]

I hadn't thought of Morse as a jazzer, and still don't. Stern played a Strat with Miles, saw that band a couple of times, more funk-rock than jazz, altho Sterno was playing some very cool stuff. Holdsworth likewise: jazz-prog-rock, but I don't think that the fact that they played Strat-style instruments for a minute was part of building their reputation, any more than the jazzers made their reputations based on what instrument they played rather than what music they played. Jim Hall had a Les Paul with Chico Hamilton, after all. There is no jazz guitar, there is jazz played on various guitars.

[entresz]

One thing that (I thought) Gibson got right was the low impedance humbuckers they used in the LP Recording/Professional/Personal
I think the control arrangement on those guitars were problematic for many... not particularly intuitive. The clean, clear (yet warm) sound of those pickups is really unique.

Regarding the gap between the fingerboard and pickup on the ES-175, I don't think we can really be 100% sure of the reasoning for it but it's something Gibson were doing on other guitars too long before the ES-175. ES-125s have this gap too. I've seen ES-250s with a gap there as well, although some seem to have the pickup closer to the neck than others- it probably depended on who was installing the pickup on the day.

[Doctor Jeff]

No doubt I'm in a minority, but I like the sound of Joe's old 1960's ES175 better than that of the new custom model. Just me, but I like Joy Spring, For Django, etc. more.

Can you give some examples? I assume the Virtuoso recordings were with his older 175 but not sure about the custom?

I hadn't thought of Morse as a jazzer, and still don't. Stern played a Strat with Miles, saw that band a couple of times, more funk-rock than jazz, altho Sterno was playing some very cool stuff. Holdsworth likewise: jazz-prog-rock, but I don't think that the fact that they played Strat-style instruments for a minute was part of building their reputation, any more than the jazzers made their reputations based on what instrument they played rather than what music they played. Jim Hall had a Les Paul with Chico Hamilton, after all. There is no jazz guitar, there is jazz played on various guitars.

Morse not a jazzer? Hmmm...

I saw Stern with Miles, but unfortunately my memories of that show in Vienna, 1984, were clouded by wine and rather uncomfortable conditions inside the Festtent. I do recall him playing a Strat, but I can’t find any pictures of him with it. For him though a hard tail Strat is more or less equivalent to a Tele.

I agree any of these musicians could play anything, and it would be demonstrably them.

[vinnyv1k]

Well we can argue about the pickup placement on a 175 but my big gripe is its demise in 2017. WTF Gibson ? That's like no mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving. 1949-2017. RIP dearly departed 175. We will miss you and always have you in our hearts. You too Tal Farlow model.

[mr. beaumont]

Heritage also makes a similar spec guitar as that custom 175 except it's carved maple. These guitars have shallower depth which would make them brighter with less lows than the full depth ES 175. So the pickup placement flush to the neck is to compensate for that I presume. Just my guess. Sadowsky Jim Hall is also a similar concept to this custom model.

Actually, as a 575 owner, I can tell you it's much darker than a 175.

[Tal_175]

Actually, as a 575 owner, I can tell you it's much darker than a 175.

Yeah they could be. I've never played one. I was just speculating that the pickup placement on those guitars maybe is chosen to balance the more shallow and acoustic (solid carved) construction.

[rpjazzguitar]

I saw Stern play a Strat with Miles in Concord Ca. Sounded great.

If Miles accepted it as a jazz guitar, that's good enough for me.

Doesn't Lorne Lofsky play a Strat? If nobody else ever played one in a jazz context, Lorne's usage would still make it a jazz guitar.

His sound is that good.

[zdub]

This

[dlew919]

It seems like criticizing a Gibson 175 is a bit like saying Mother Teresa had a dodgy reputation on this forum!
I still think the pickup would produce a warmer tone closer to the fretboard. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that it was supposed to be but they found that the original p90 wouldn't sit high enough to the strings so they moved it backwards and it just became standard after. I cant deny that it has been used by many great jazzers but could it have been just a tad better?

So! Haha. How many of you think the Byrdland would have been a bigger seller with a 24 3/4 or even a 24 inch scale rather than the excessively short 23 1/2? The George Gobel's desirability kind of backs me up on this one guys. Actually, (starting a whole new argument) 25 inch probably would be the best compromise for all of Gibsons electrics........ in my opinion! Just think how much money they could have saved by adopting the 25'' scale throughout production. It's Bob Benedetto's preferred scale as well so I'm not alone.

Um, read Chris hitchens on mother Teresa.... he thought about her much the same way a Wes Montgomery influenced guitarist might think of adding a boss hm2 to his or her rig.


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[skykomishone]

Well we can argue about the pickup placement on a 175 but my big gripe is its demise in 2017. WTF Gibson ? That's like no mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving. 1949-2017. RIP dearly departed 175. We will miss you and always have you in our hearts. You too Tal Farlow model.

How true!

[aquin43]

I never understood this old wives' tale. What does it have to do with the fretted notes and chords that most of us play? If you play around the middle length of the fretboard, the closer the pickup is to the end of the neck the better.

1/4 of the string length is a magic number. It suppresses the 4th harmonic on the open string, the 3rd harmonic when playing at the 5th fret and the 2nd harmonic at the 12th fret. Moving the pickup changes these ratios. It may or may not give an improvement but the original choice was probably made because the craft of lutherie has always liked simple ratios.

[ronjazz]

I saw Stern play a Strat with Miles in Concord Ca. Sounded great.

If Miles accepted it as a jazz guitar, that's good enough for me.

Doesn't Lorne Lofsky play a Strat? If nobody else ever played one in a jazz context, Lorne's usage would still make it a jazz guitar.

His sound is that good.

Miles wanted rock guitar. A Strat is not a Tele.

Lofsky doesn't play a Strat.

[GNAPPI]

I missed something Gibson got right... the Volute, and it too is gone. At least Ibanez was able to buck the hysterical herd mentality of purists.

[grahambop]

Miles wanted rock guitar. A Strat is not a Tele.

Lofsky doesn't play a Strat.

???