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List below all the design failures that you think Gibson made.
Here’s my starter.
(note: I am a Gibson fan)
The ES 175 and it’s siblings should have had the neck pickup butt up against the fretboard end. Like it does on all the expensive models. Why did they do that?
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05-11-2020 04:15 AM
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It is under the 24th fret harmonic
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So?
Originally Posted by fws6
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I disagree. I think they should have had 22 frets instead of 20 like most other guitars. The last two frets would've been mostly useless and would get in the way of the pick but it'd stop misleading people into thinking that ES175 neck pickup up is closer to the bridge than other 22 fret guitars.
If anything that makes ES 175 sound warmer as it facilitates picking closer to the neck with ease instead of the area between the pickups.Last edited by Tal_175; 05-11-2020 at 07:52 AM.
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ES 175 neck pickup placement is pretty much the same as the neck pickup placement of Telecasters and Stratocaters if you consider neck pickup placement with respect to the overall string length (which is what really matters for tone). Also Les Paul's have the same scale length but have 22 frets so pickup placement is again pretty much the same.
So the real question is why should Gibson have put the ES 175 neck pickup further away from the bridge?
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How about things Gibson (IMO) got right that snooty traditionalists ignored and good ideas went away? Players that hear with their eyes should play the harmonica or violin... they're all the same without anything visual to bitch about :-)
1. The "snake and hockey" stick heads.
2. Large DC hollow bodies like the ES-150 (ES-335 shape)
3. Double cut Les Pauls
4. Semi hollow bodies with an access plate (ES-333 style) in the rear.
5. Single cut semi hollow body models
6. Stereo
7. Semi hollow Les Pauls
8. FB's without fret markers like the Pat Martino Custom
9. Flat top "semi" (one piece back sides) like the Vegas, and Midtown
10 Anything with odd "F" holes
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How many frets does the L4CES have? 20 I reckon. So the pickup is significantly closer to the bridge. Personally I think that would improve the tone. (But plenty of 175 players make a good tone). It just bugs me that they didn’t place it where it should be. To confirm that note how every carved top has the the pickup as close as possible to the 20th fret. Like the L5 for example. So Gibson confirms my point I think. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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The point I'm making is that the ES 175 neck pickup placement is not wrong or an odd design flaw, it is the common standard.
Carved guitars are different animals. They are generally brighter and more articulate allowing more extreme pickup placement towards the neck without getting muddy. Moreover pickup placement closer to the neck allows better resonation of the carved top.
I mean Gibson hires really good luthiers. They don't come up with their designs by monkeys pushing buttons as many seem to imply around the internet.Last edited by Tal_175; 05-12-2020 at 08:16 AM.
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1. No and no Originally Posted by GNAPPI
2. Not my cup of tea. People like the Barney Kessel though.
3. The SG has been very popular (understatement)
4. Yes! Should be on every guitar. Plus plug and play wiring. It’s not the 1950’s anymore.
5. Yep—my 135 would agree
6. Don’t have a dog in this fight
7. This seems to me pretty unnecessary, given the number of other semis out there. I doubt it does much sound-wise, but I’ve never tried one, so can’t say with authority. The semi Teles weigh less, but without a huge change in tone.
8. OK with me. Are they on the side? Cause I have a problem with NO fret markers.
9. Yep good idea. Remember that Carvin model we were discussing a few years ago? Good idea to hold down weight and increase resonance.
10. I am kind of a purist about the F-holes. My Harmony has super-cool F-holes in 3 parts—nice art-deco cutout design. But cat’s eye or ginormous? Not a fan.
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Unlike Gretsch, which came up with designs by Monkees actually playing guitars. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Because this is a jazz guitar forum and I am talking about jazz guitars. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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There is no such thing as jazz guitar as an instrument. If there were, it wouldn't be ridiculous to consider ES 175 to be the canonical example. Originally Posted by md54
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I like that gap because that’s where I tend to pick.
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To my ears the 175 sounds best when the pick spot is located between the pickup and the fretboard. I like it not being there when I pick and I keep the pickup pretty low. The pickup located at the end of the fingerboard would not change the overall tone to any degree. These are just my opinions of course but the model has been around a long time and if this was deemed a design failure they have had plenty of time to change it. Originally Posted by md54
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Name 1 respected jazz guitarist who built a reputation playing a strat.
I agree that the 175 is the archetypal jazzer. Doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been better.
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Strat, Tele and varios other (non-jazz?) guitars with proportionally near identical neck pickup placement as ES 175 have been used by great jazz players. But I'm just gonna leave this one alone. I guess we agree to disagree on ES 175 neck pickup placement needing improvement. Originally Posted by md54
It is an opinionated thread, so you'll get opinionated responses. Nothing bad about that
Last edited by Tal_175; 05-11-2020 at 11:23 AM.
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It seems like criticizing a Gibson 175 is a bit like saying Mother Teresa had a dodgy reputation on this forum!
I still think the pickup would produce a warmer tone closer to the fretboard. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that it was supposed to be but they found that the original p90 wouldn't sit high enough to the strings so they moved it backwards and it just became standard after. I cant deny that it has been used by many great jazzers but could it have been just a tad better?
So! Haha. How many of you think the Byrdland would have been a bigger seller with a 24 3/4 or even a 24 inch scale rather than the excessively short 23 1/2? The George Gobel's desirability kind of backs me up on this one guys. Actually, (starting a whole new argument) 25 inch probably would be the best compromise for all of Gibsons electrics........ in my opinion! Just think how much money they could have saved by adopting the 25'' scale throughout production. It's Bob Benedetto's preferred scale as well so I'm not alone.
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I never understood this old wives' tale. What does it have to do with the fretted notes and chords that most of us play? If you play around the middle length of the fretboard, the closer the pickup is to the end of the neck the better. Originally Posted by fws6
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They should have left the input jack in the butt end of the guitar as in the original ES-150s. Probably 100,000 jack repairs out there, mostly ugly.
Full depth laminates. Tougher call. I have owned plenty, and you could make the argument that they have a deeper, fuller sound plugged in (as would a noncutaway), but they are also more prone to feedback and a bit less comfortable to play, especially standing up. The 175 would be a better guitar IMHO if it was an inch or so shallower, as Gretsch and Guild did with their 175 style guitars. The same argument can be made about the L5CES, which while a carved top, is not an acoustic guitar, and does not need the body depth.
F holes on CES guitars, for the same reasons. Just creates an aftermarket for f hole plugs.
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I don't think that P90 thing is correct. The ES175 has a very odd arch on the top. Moving the pickup toward the bridge would not raise it closer to the strings on the 16" ES models I have access to. The arch is such that some people think the top has collapsed, but it's more a kind of odd slope. So I don't think the P90 location would have been much of an issue. Maybe it was, I can't say, but I think the geometry works out anywhere there. Originally Posted by md54
My own belief is that when they made the ES175 they just used the ES125 as a template and gave it a cutaway. Everything else they left alone, including the pickup location.
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All this talk about "improving " the 175, yet the sound of the 175 seems to be what 80-90% of the people on this forum are after!
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No subject should be a taboo on this forum. Except of course the subject of ES 175 Originally Posted by md54
Last edited by Tal_175; 05-11-2020 at 11:33 AM.
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Couldn't agree more! The guitar world is full of mythology and codswallop. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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True but if the pickup was in the better position (IMO) perhaps 99% would prefer the 175 as their choice. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is sacred here. It’s just a guitar guys. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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You're missing my point. Many people love the sound of the 175 as is. If you change things, it won't sound like a 175 anymore. No "sacred" bs about it. I'm not saying you can't change it, I'm saying if you change it, you change the sound people are looking for that there's literally 500 threads about here. Originally Posted by md54
Of course, I always love a good "I bought this guitar that's not a 175, how do I get it sound like joe pass on joy spring?" thread
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