How much of a hard-line for speaker power ratings?

[jzucker]

Considering putting a celestion G12H-75 in a cab to use for clean jazz. I assume the speaker will handle more than its rated power. Anyone have a feel for whether a single 12 will hold up for 100w?

[jads57]

Quilter says the Celestion Lead 80 can easily handle 100watts. Same for WGS ET 90 . Jensen lists their Neo Tornado as 100watts but peak at 200 watts.
I would email the companies and see what say.
The old rule I followed was 2 to 1 ratio, in other words 100 watt speaker for a 50 watt tube amp.

[Woody Sound]

What kind of amp? Tube or ss? How hard do you push it?

[Tom Karol]

Jack, you may remember that I experimented with alternate speakers when I had a Henriksen JazzAmp 110 (rated at 120 watts RMS). I damaged both an Eminence Ragin Cajun rated at 75 watts and a Weber California rated at 80 watts while playing aggressive pop (i.e., not hard rock with effects) with the Henriksen's volume at 12 O'Clock. So, I'm not comfortable with what you're contemplating. However, I suspect that if I had been playing straight-ahead jazz with the amp's volume at no more than 11 O'Clock - which would have been quite loud in a jazz context - I probably wouldn't have experienced a problem. Still, I'd be wary.

[neatomic]

celestion G12H-75 has a sensitivity of 100db...which means 1 watt produces 100db!..that's super efficient...you really shouldn't have to turn up too much on the amp volume to be plenty loud!!..however, if you really push the amp hard, and with some overdrive, you could blow it....

always better to have a higher rated speaker than amp, esp. if you want to get the full effect of the guitar and amp, rather than the speaker being at its breaking point coloring your tone

or get 2!! haha


cheers

ps- speakers usually don't blow from one blast...the voice coil under prolonged high wattage will heat and eventually burn...so you will get diminished/distorted tone long before it dies altogether

[jzucker]

What kind of amp? Tube or ss? How hard do you push it?

SS - Raezer's Edge Luna (200W) . Raezer's Edge says it'll be fine. I did email celestion. I won't push it too hard. Typically , I use one cab for trio gigs, 2 cabs for louder gigs.

[jzucker]

p.s. the celestion red back is rated a 150. I wish I knew how it sounded compared to the creamback...

[Woody Sound]

I had the exact same speaker for a while in a cab with a Pearce G2r head (SS), and it sounded fab, but I wasn't pushing it too hard during that period. So YMMV.

[jads57]

Redback is very Bass Pronounced! Didn't care for it by itself or with a Creamback 65 in a 2x12 open back Carvin cab.
I just got a 1x12 open back cab from DV Mark.It has the Silver Neo 150 watts,so far so good!

[jzucker]

the red might be designed for low tuning and djent. The specs look identical in terms of the frequency graph though.

[vintagelove]

I know that a 100w dumble style amp through a single 12 (Celestion gk100? Something with 100, white label on back) made the speaker make some noises that prompted me to turn it down.

It still works and sounds good, but I’m not sure how much of that abuse the speaker could endure.

[neatomic]

to make a speaker more "heavy duty" power rating wise, some design tweaking has to obviously be involved...different/larger magnets...thicker cones...heavier voice coils...etc etc .. but i think celestion has been doing a great job keeping their classic tones going even with the increased power ratings...a big heavy duty 90 watt alnico creamback speaker is gonna be a tad slower than a brash 15 watt celestion blue...but still some commonalities exist...amongst the similar designs

cheers

[jzucker]

to make a speaker more "heavy duty" power rating wise, some design tweaking has to obviously be involved...different/larger magnets...thicker cones...heavier voice coils...etc etc .. but i think celestion has been doing a great job keeping their classic tones going even with the increased power ratings...a big heavy duty 90 watt alnico creamback speaker is gonna be a tad slower than a brash 15 watt celestion blue...but still some commonalities exist...amongst the similar designs

cheers

I have a pair of the alnico 90s currently but I just like the G12H-75 better.

[EllenGtrGrl]

celestion G12H-75 has a sensitivity of 100db...which means 1 watt produces 100db!..that's super efficient...you really shouldn't have to turn up too much on the amp volume to be plenty loud!!..however, if you really push the amp hard, and with some overdrive, you could blow it....

always better to have a higher rated speaker than amp, esp. if you want to get the full effect of the guitar and amp, rather than the speaker being at its breaking point coloring your tone

or get 2!! haha


cheers

ps- speakers usually don't blow from one blast...the voice coil under prolonged high wattage will heat and eventually burn...so you will get diminished/distorted tone long before it dies altogether

+1 Pulses are not an issue - it's when you're running over 50% duty cycle (duty cycle relates to full power output for an amp - 50% duty cycle means that 50% of the time, the amp is putting out its full rated power), through a speaker rated at only half or 2/3 of your amp's full power, that I get nervous. As Neatone stated, the coils dissipate heat due to the fact that no speaker is much more than 10 or 15% efficient. So, crank a 100 watt amp through a 50 watt rated speaker, and at 15% efficiency, 85 watts is dissipated as heat, and only 15 watts actually gives you volume. Throw in playing in such a way that the amp is running at say 50% of its duty cycle, and you're losing 42.5 watts as heat - oooh! I don't like that. For a 50 watt speaker, that's getting mighty close to the speaker's power rating, and those voice coils are getting mighty hot. Decide you want to let your inner Al Di Meola of Bill Conners run free, by playing with some dirt, and as Neatone alluded to, signal clipping from the amp adds to the heat factor in the voice coil. Nope! Not for me. I prefer to run speakers with quite a bit more rating than what my amp puts out, or multiple speakers to spread the power out (which is how you can get away with playing a 100 watt Marshall through a 4x12 half stack, with old school 30 watt Celestions [I'm not talking about Celestion Vintage 30s - those are actually rated at 70 watts each]). In my personal experience, I've had more than a few 30 watt amps, that had 70 watt speakers in them. The sound hasn't suffered, since most speakers nowadays are relatively efficient, compared to what was available 50 years ago. Also, I'm not afraid to adjust tone controls on my amps (or secondarily, my guitars), to tweak my sound.

I know there are some people who like to push speakers past their power rating, because they like the way it affects the tone (due to voice coil heating, which causes speaker distortion), or they feel that they get quicker response for the notes they play, but IMO it's not worth it. Sooner or later, the speaker(s) will fail.

Just my 2 Cents Worth,
Ellen

[jzucker]

I know there are some people who like to push speakers past their power rating, because they like the way it affects the tone (due to voice coil heating, which causes speaker distortion), or tey feel that they get quicker response for the notes they play, but IMO it's not worth it. Sooner or later, the speaker(s) will fail.

Just my 2 Cents Worth,
Ellen

I'm not interested in it for that reason. I just like the way the speaker sounds for clean (and dirty) better than any other speaker.

[jzucker]

raezer's edge says it'll be fine but celestion emailed me back and said if the volume of the amp is on 5 or greater I stand a good chance of blowing the speaker.

[EllenGtrGrl]

I'm not interested in it for that reason. I just like the way the speaker sounds for clean (and dirty) better than any other speaker.

Go for it then, but live with the fact that sooner or later, the speaker will fail for pushing it past its rating. It's a cumulative effect.

[Greentone]

Remember, Marshall used to put two 15 watt Celestion 12s in the 45 watt Blues breaker amp, no sweat.

[wintermoon]

That's what I was thinking GT.
On a smaller scale, the orig 50w brown and gold foil label Jensens that are in my blackface Twins are superb to me, though it's an 85w amp.
That said, they're frequently replaced when you find a vintage Twin due to blowing, folks think Twins are indestructible, but inefficient speakers like old Oxfords and to a lesser degree, Jensens don't take much to blow if ridden hard and/or are old paper.
But I just get 'em reconed and they'll be good for another 15-20 yrs minimum.
Matter of fact first blackface Twin I bought had 1 good and 1 buzzy Jensen. Had Ted Weber recone both (yes, I had him recone a working speaker)
But this was gonna be my main gigging amp, didn't want a speaker blowing during performance. All these yrs later still going strong.

[EllenGtrGrl]

Remember, Marshall used to put two 15 watt Celestion 12s in the 45 watt Blues breaker amp, no sweat.

Yeah, but that's because they conservatively rated the Celestion 12s in that time period (1960s). Nowadays, that isn't done.

[neatomic]

also tho the bluesbreaker was labelled 45..as in jtm 45..but it really put out about 35 watts max

& old twins burned out many of their original speakers...plus the jensens were not super efficient..hardly ever find intact oxfords!

cheers

[KirkP]

Decades ago I bought a used Fender Twin Reverb loaded with Celestion T1088 drivers (labeled Vox JMI). I used it for a few years in a loud band. Eventually one of them developed a coil rub, so I had it reconed. The other came through just fine. I learned much later they were each rated for 15 watts!

At the relatively low volumes I play these days, I wouldn’t be too worried about using a driver that’s rated a bit less than the amp, as long as I’m the only one who uses the rig.

[LimehouseBlues]

I have a pair of the alnico 90s currently but I just like the G12H-75 better.

Agreed... the G12H-75 is a great speaker, and extremely versatile.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Go for it then, but live with the fact that sooner or later, the speaker will fail for pushing it past its rating. It's a cumulative effect.

That’s not exactly correct. First, it’s a rare 50+ W amp that ever comes near its rated output for more than milliseconds (even in heavy commercial use) unless it’s being used in a setting that demands a more powerful amp (eg unreinforced stadium or other large venue gigs) or it’s hooked up to the wrong load.

Second, those 50+W amps that are pushed that hard are almost all being hit with serious OD and distortion, and that’s what kills most speakers. The sharp waveform transitions in square and triangle waves generate huge “spectral splashes” of nasty harmonics - and that high energy high frequency signal is what overheats voice coils and rips cones.

Third, far more speakers are blown when underpowered than when overpowered, because distortion from amp clipping is almost as bad for them them as the distortion we add to the input and amplify.

So jazz players virtually never blow speakers unless either the amp is grossly underpowered for both the speaker and the gig or they’re using OD or distortion effects to get higher output levels than the amp could / should be asked to generate.