What’s Going On Now at Gibson?

[John A.]

Getting OT, but I always wondered why they didn't kill Olds or Buick instead of Pontiac. They could have incorporated aspects of Olds and Buick into one. One nice upscale lineup above Chev/Pontiac, and below Caddys. Oh well.

They did kill Olds. Now there's just Chevy, Caddilac, and GMC in the US.

John

[Dennis D]

They did kill Olds. Now there's just Chevy, Caddilac, and GMC in the US.

John

Olds / Saturn was going too be the division that competed with and felt like the Euro brands.........

....And when everything went South, they tried to sell the Saturn brand to Roger Penske.......now that would've been interesting !

[zcostilla]

Getting OT, but I always wondered why they didn't kill Olds or Buick instead of Pontiac. They could have incorporated aspects of Olds and Buick into one. One nice upscale lineup above Chev/Pontiac, and below Caddys. Oh well.

probably because the Pontiacs were the most like stock Chevys. In their heyday, the drivetrains and cosmetics were different, but their frames were all the same. Once they started going unique again, they were left with the Bonneville (not bad), the G8 (ok, but not as good as what their targeted competition was), the Aztek (ASSTEC? Really? I’d rather own a Byrdland with G-force tuners!). Going a little further back, the Fierros looked cool, but they were maintenance nightmares. I wish they’d have kept the Oldsmobiles over the Buick’s. To me the 88/98 lines were a better option than Buick to touchstone to do what Lincoln is to Ford.

[raylinds]

I think archtops have been a niche market for some time and I think there are too many good alternatives in the market. Epiphone has really stepped up their game when it comes to build quality. When I was in the market for a blues guitars to add to my Fenders I looked at Gibson Les Pauls and ES-335s and also tried the Epi Les Paul Tribute model (with the Gibson vintage PAFs) and the Sheraton II Pro. I thought the build quality was just as good as the Gibsons, and the feel and sound were at least 90 to 95% as good, and the looks were better than the more affordable Gibson versions. But they were a fraction of the price, so I went with the Epis and do not regret it.

When I was in the market for archtops I found there were just too many attractive alternatives to Gibson. If you want to spend less, there are excellent quality options like Eastman, Peerless, Heritage, Ibanez, etc. and for more money there are fantastic hand built guitars from small luthier shops that are competitive in price with the Gibsons.

All of my jazz guitar heroes played Gibsons and I practically worship the ES-175 (I even have a book about its history), but I don't think they are worth the considerable premium for the name on the headstock. No, the Peerless clone I got does not sound the same, but I love its tone and it was $800 used.

There are always going to be those that are willing to pay the premium for the name and the mojo they feel the real thing gives them, and for that reason I hope Gibson continues to make them, but I am not sure if there are enough of those individuals to support new production of these guitars.

I know a lot of people that claim that current production Gibsons do not have the quality they once did. I do not have enough experience with Gibsons of various eras to know if this is true or not, but that seems to be the perception of some people.

[Tatayoyo]

There must be something special with Gibson, for years and years I hear people (including myself) saying "it's 99% of Gibson for 25% the price, no reason to spend more" and finally, when money allows it they buy the real thing.
I couldn't tell the number of Gibsons lookalikes I found excellent then sold...

[Woody Sound]

They did kill Olds. Now there's just Chevy, Caddilac, and GMC in the US.

John

Well I misspoke my meaning, but there still is Buick, in addition to the above brands.

All Current Vehicles: Luxury Cars, Sedans, SUVs & Convertible | Buick

What I should have said is, I would have liked to have seen these 3 brands:

Caddy, some combo of Buick/Olds, and some combo of Pont/Chev.

They killed off numbers 2 & 3, of the 5, instead of numbers 2 & 4, which would have more evenly split the difference.

Caddy
Buick
Olds - GONE
Pont - GONE
Chave

Still don't know if I am explaining myself well.

[jads57]

Just want to say again how spectacular Crimson edition Gibson Archtops are or were. Phillip Whorton had some of the best builds under his leadership in my opinion. And that includes Jim Hutchins and the 1950's as well!

In a way it's truly a waste of Gibson's luthiers, skills having them design guitars for Slash etc. And while I certainly can appreciate a great Les Paul or even thin line, a Carved top guitar requires a bit more skill.

[Stringswinger]

Just want to say again how spectacular Crimson edition Gibson Archtops are or were. Phillip Whorton had some of the best builds under his leadership in my opinion. And that includes Jim Hutchins and the 1950's as well!

In a way it's truly a waste of Gibson's luthiers, skills having them design guitars for Slash etc. And while I certainly can appreciate a great Les Paul or even thin line, a Carved top guitar requires a bit more skill.

My understanding is that Gibson will make you a carved top archtop by special order today if you will pay the price. That seems like a proper way to market L-5's and Super 400's given the scant demand for a new one.

But a new 175 cannot be had. Why not offer those by special order? Why discontinue an iconic guitar? I am sure that a few could be sold each year for a profit. Having been in business, my thought is that if you already have the tools, the facility and the labor and the customer wants something not on the "menu" and is willing to wait till you can produce it, you are a fool to turn that customer away.

[wintermoon]

"My understanding is that Gibson will make you a carved top archtop by special order today if you will pay the price. That seems like a proper way to market L-5's and Super 400's given the scant demand for a new one"

That's actually the way it was in most places back in the day except for the big shops who might have one in stock.
There was also a time in the late 80's early 90's when carved archtop production resumed that you had to pay Gibson 50K just for the right to offer them, don't know if that's the case today

[GNAPPI]

My understanding is that Gibson will make you a carved top archtop by special order today if you will pay the price. That seems like a proper way to market L-5's and Super 400's given the scant demand for a new one.

But a new 175 cannot be had. Why not offer those by special order? Why discontinue an iconic guitar? I am sure that a few could be sold each year for a profit. Having been in business, my thought is that if you already have the tools, the facility and the labor and the customer wants something not on the "menu" and is willing to wait till you can produce it, you are a fool to turn that customer away.

I agree, if demand for new is there, (there are always players who will not buy used) why not at the very least make a special run every year or two, and MAKE the production dates and stocking dealers KNOWN. This may even preempt sales to another maker.

Like the historically open for lunchtime only fast food restaurants, they have the site to maintain 24/7 with A/C, insurance, lighting... it's silly not to offer breakfast and dinner options, which now many do.

[Jim Soloway]

My understanding is that Gibson will make you a carved top archtop by special order today if you will pay the price. That seems like a proper way to market L-5's and Super 400's given the scant demand for a new one.

But a new 175 cannot be had. Why not offer those by special order? Why discontinue an iconic guitar? I am sure that a few could be sold each year for a profit. Having been in business, my thought is that if you already have the tools, the facility and the labor and the customer wants something not on the "menu" and is willing to wait till you can produce it, you are a fool to turn that customer away.

Carved guitars can be built one at a time. Laminate guitars are production instruments. They don't lend themselves to a on-off process.

[raylinds]

There must be something special with Gibson, for years and years I hear people (including myself) saying "it's 99% of Gibson for 25% the price, no reason to spend more" and finally, when money allows it they buy the real thing.

I do not doubt that this happens, but I am not sure how common it is.

[Bach5G]

There must be something special with Gibson, for years and years I hear people (including myself) saying "it's 99% of Gibson for 25% the price, no reason to spend more" and finally, when money allows it they buy the real thing.
I couldn't tell the number of Gibsons lookalikes I found excellent then sold...

I got s great deal on an Epi 339 but eventually sold it and bought a Gibson.

[Stringswinger]

Carved guitars can be built one at a time. Laminate guitars are production instruments. They don't lend themselves to a on-off process.

Nonsense. If what you stated was correct (and I am certain that it is not), Jimmy D'Aquisto, Roger Borys, Steve Holst, Bob Benedetto, John Buscarino, Dale Ungar and a host of other custom builders who offer/offered one-off custom laminate archtop guitars would not have done/be doing so.

[John A.]

But a new 175 cannot be had. Why not offer those by special order? Why discontinue an iconic guitar? I am sure that a few could be sold each year for a profit. Having been in business, my thought is that if you already have the tools, the facility and the labor and the customer wants something not on the "menu" and is willing to wait till you can produce it, you are a fool to turn that customer away.

There could be a large opportunity cost to diverting production resources to a custom or low production product. If it takes the same hours and tooling to make 1 175 as it does to make 10 335's (made up numbers here, obviously) they would need to price a 175 at several multiples of the price of a 335 (probably not 10x, though) to break even.

My guess is that the break-even price for a 175 (factoring in the opportunity cost) is too high for what Gibson believes the market to be. Over time, the new guys may be able to close the productivity gap and make a viably priced 175 (and/or a halo effect), and bring them back. But all this is just a guess.

John

[73Fender]

I'll start by saying that I am a Gibson fan, warts and all. I was raised with the brand and have a decent little Gibson collection. I wish the company and, especially those who depend on the company to earn a living, the best of luck going forward. Really it is a business plain and simple with all that entails.

With that said, from a selfish point of view, there are so many good used Gibsons out there already. I would never buy a new one and take that hit money wise. I especially like the 90's era for the brand.

Also, there are now so many great alternatives out there from other makers, domestic and overseas.

In the grand scheme of things, to me all this is of little real consequence. I do have that soft spot in my heart for the brand. I've been watching the Ken Burns PBS country music series and seeing all those old Gibsons, guitars mandolins etc, remind me of the historic aspect and I do wish them well.

But that's just me.

[Dennis D]

Nonsense. If what you stated was correct (and I am certain that it is not), Jimmy D'Aquisto, Roger Borys, Steve Holst, Bob Benedetto, John Buscarino, Dale Ungar and a host of other custom builders who offer/offered one-off custom laminate archtop guitars would not have done/be doing so.

.........Sorry I don't know how to copy the post this replied to - the gist of which was that 'carved archtops are one-offs' while ' laminates are production instruments '....

........These builders mentioned were / are indeed building custom laminates, but never in any production numbers..... but the 175 was never meant to compete with a hand-made luthier built instrument.....And I'd guess most if not all of these builders' guitars sold for a lot more than a 175 and rightly so..... the 175 was /is basically a student level guitar, or one step above, aimed at the entry-level part of the archtop market.......

........Those builders may indeed have offered and still offer custom built laminate instruments, but unlike Gibson, they'd be building them in pairs, not dozens.

[Tal_175]

If it takes the same hours and tooling to make 1 175 as it does to make 10 335's (made up numbers here, obviously) they would need to price a 175 at several multiples of the price of a 335 (probably not 10x, though) to break even.

I think that ratio is way over-blown. I'd say the ratio probably is 1 to 1.5 and that's even an exaggeration.
You can see 335's and 175 go through exactly the same process (starting at around minute 6:00 or so). Just different thickness. In fact the solid block of 335 may even be extra work.

[Jim Soloway]

Nonsense. If what you stated was correct (and I am certain that it is not), Jimmy D'Aquisto, Roger Borys, Steve Holst, Bob Benedetto, John Buscarino, Dale Ungar and a host of other custom builders who offer/offered one-off custom laminate archtop guitars would not have done/be doing so.

Dennis already said pretty much what I would say. The new owners at Gibson have to recoup $65 million that they put into the company when they took over plus they're trying to get back at least some of the $350 million or so that they were stiffed by the previous owners. You don't do that by building a handful of guitars. The numbers are just too small and the work too complex.

[Gitterbug]

Veblen or Giffen?

[Stringswinger]

.........Sorry I don't know how to copy the post this replied to - the gist of which was that 'carved archtops are one-offs' while ' laminates are production instruments '....

........These builders mentioned were / are indeed building custom laminates, but never in any production numbers..... but the 175 was never meant to compete with a hand-made luthier built instrument.....And I'd guess most if not all of these builders' guitars sold for a lot more than a 175 and rightly so..... the 175 was /is basically a student level guitar, or one step above, aimed at the entry-level part of the archtop market.......

........Those builders may indeed have offered and still offer custom built laminate instruments, but unlike Gibson, they'd be building them in pairs, not dozens.

The Gibson ES-175 was always marketed as (and very much is) a Professional level guitar, I never suggested that the new owners should build ES-175's in any mass quantity, I merely think that if they are offering L-5's and Super 400's on a one off basis, other models should also be offered. Turning away a ready, willing and able customer when you have the means to produce what that customer wants at a profit, is an unwise business practice. American banks and businesses have made that mistake for decades and Asian banks and businesses have filled that need and made those profits.

[DMgolf66]

I've become friendly with someone on the Product Development & MFG side at Gibson and he said a few things of interest.

they are absolutely making Archtops. Every day. Using original templates and carving machines, etc. And are in the process of relaunching a lot of products so the visibility isn’t great right now. Said can order anything through a Gibson dealer.

they build to order and have a big backlog so it does take some time but rarely would would they have available inventory of Archtops.

The ES-175 didn't have great sales numbers as a core model. Mentioned the used demand curve. And that it took up a lot of opportunity cost as well. it's acustom-order for now, but that could change.

I think most of this known, but the mention of the opportunity cost by Stringswinger sparked my memory of the conversation.

[Tal_175]

So you can order custom ES 175? That's what I read somewhere. I also heard that the custom order price for ES 175 is around 10.000 USD though for solid color! Don't quote me on that. I see no reason Gibson not make custom ES 175's. They don't need to make them one at a time. They are not gonna tell you to come by in the afternoon and they'll have it ready. They'd instead make a whole bunch couple of days a year. That's why you'll get 6 months or say wait time on such orders. Like shown in the video, they are made just like any other ES guitar with a wider strip of plywood for the sides and a few things here and there.

[Tatayoyo]

$10000 the ES 175 ???
It's kind of "basic" model, no ?

[Tal_175]

$10000 the ES 175 ???
It's kind of "basic" model, no ?

Like I said don't quote me on the number. I remember reading it somewhere. But of course expect much higher prices for custom orders than what you pay in stores.