Pickup Advice for a Gibson ES-175

[lesyeuxnoirs]

I KNOW that this is an age-old topic but I have a specific issue that I would value some advice on

So, I have two Gibson 175s (one from 2001, the other from 2006)

I one of them, I wanted P90s and so I installed the Bare Knuckle Manhattan (a Humbucker sized P90) and it is wonderful

On the other, I kept the stock pickups (this is the 2001 model so I assume Classic 57s?) but I wasn't *quite* happy with them because I found them a little muddy

Given how pleased I was with the Bare Knuckle P90, and how much I like the company, I went back to them for a replacement humbucker. I was advised to get the Stormy Mondays on the grounds that is similar to the Classic 57 but with more clarity/less mud, and good for jazz. This advice chimed with what I have read on here and other forums

However, I really don't like them now that I have installed them. I can tell that they are a good pick up but I cannot get them to sound how I would like. They sound very weak and thin, and not at all what I would want out of a 175 (actually the bridge pickup is very good but I hardly ever use that!)

I have tried adjusting the height, adjusting the amp (and guitar) settings but they just don't sound good to my ears

Is the issue that in getting rid of the mud, muffle and boom, I have thrown the baby out with bathwater?

Or is there something else that I could try...does anybody have any recommendations for a nice thick/fat sounding pick up that works well in a 175 and isn't too muddy or boomy (i.e. still has clarity and a 'tight' sound).

Something else in the Bare Knuckle range?
Anything from Seymour Duncan?
One of the US boutique winders (Lollar?)
Any other suggestions?

I should add that I am looking for a Humbucker, ideally, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to consider other P90s (especially 'silent' ones) or similar that might offer something different to the Manhattans in my other guitar

I play mainly through a Mambo amp but occasionally use a Princeton

Thanks in advance

[Greentone]

Always remember to use input 2 on the Princeton when playing with humbuckers.

[Franz 1997]

I have had a few 175s from different eras over the years. Being plywood, the 175 is prized for its thunky, cutting sound, but I feel that the classic 57 pickup with its Alnico 2 magnet ( = softer attack, less treble) and overwound 8k dcr coils (= thicker sound) is not a good match for the 175 , and tends to make an already thick-sounding guitar sound muddy and indistinct. ( The Classic 57 can sound great in a carved-top guitar, though, which has a naturally less thick and more 3 -dimensional sound). The best ( ie good balance of 'thunk' and clarity ) sound I have ever had from a 175 is in a 70s model, which had the humbuckers that Gibson was usinhg at the time; T-tops, which are pickups with an Alnico 5 magnet and 'normally' wound coils of about 7K dcr ( forgive the tech talk).

There are lots of T-top style pickups around; I don't think you have to pay boutique prices necessarily. Seymour Duncan pickups are pretty reasonable; I currently have an elderly dimarzio Alnico 5 pickup made to a 'T top' recipe in my black 175 that sounds excellent. Bulldog pickups in the UK are good value, IMO. If shopping around, some pickup makers publish ' tone guides' , which graphically represent the relative amounts of bass, mid, and treble. It sounds to me as if you need pickup with less mid than either treble or bass.

Before you buy another pickup, one well-known trick for increasing clarity, esp on the bass side, is to lower the pickup in the ring and then extend the polepieces upwards; this gives a clearer sound with less 'mud', at the expense of overall volume. Worth trying first, easy to reverse if you don't like it. Or try the fender setting on the Mambo?

Another similar trick which a lot of us use is getting the treble side of the pickup quite close to the strings, but backing off the bass side by as much as 5mm, which keeps a fat treble sound but lowers the bass content and cleans up the sound. You can adjust the bass side polepieces upwards a bit, which also cleans up the bass sound by making it more 'single-coil' sounding.

In the end, of course, it's all down to personal taste....

[citizenk74]

In the pick department, try Dunlop Jazz IIs in black. Slightly worn is best. When I got my second 175 (bought in 2006) I went through my sizable pick collection to see what sounded best. The clear winner was a worn-in Jazz II. I then set about reshaping and polishing other picks to match that one in terms of tone. Real good luck with Dunlop 205s, 3mm Lil' Stubbies, 206s, and the ULTEX Jazz III shape with the tip considerably blunted (The ULTEX is very hard to work, and should last a very log time).

The advice in the above posts is good; I spent considerable time adjusting pickups and experimenting with strings and so forth. Patience is advisable. Good luck!

[lesyeuxnoirs]

I have had a few 175s from different eras over the years. Being plywood, the 175 is prized for its thunky, cutting sound, but I feel that the classic 57 pickup with its Alnico 2 magnet ( = softer attack, less treble) and overwound 8k dcr coils (= thicker sound) is not a good match for the 175 , and tends to make an already thick-sounding guitar sound muddy and indistinct. ( The Classic 57 can sound great in a carved-top guitar, though, which has a naturally less thick and more 3 -dimensional sound). The best ( ie good balance of 'thunk' and clarity ) sound I have ever had from a 175 is in a 70s model, which had the humbuckers that Gibson was usinhg at the time; T-tops, which are pickups with an Alnico 5 magnet and 'normally' wound coils of about 7K dcr ( forgive the tech talk).

There are lots of T-top style pickups around; I don't think you have to pay boutique prices necessarily. Seymour Duncan pickups are pretty reasonable; I currently have an elderly dimarzio Alnico 5 pickup made to a 'T top' recipe in my black 175 that sounds excellent. Bulldog pickups in the UK are good value, IMO. If shopping around, some pickup makers publish ' tone guides' , which graphically represent the relative amounts of bass, mid, and treble. It sounds to me as if you need pickup with less mid than either treble or bass.

Before you buy another pickup, one well-known trick for increasing clarity, esp on the bass side, is to lower the pickup in the ring and then extend the polepieces upwards; this gives a clearer sound with less 'mud', at the expense of overall volume. Worth trying first, easy to reverse if you don't like it. Or try the fender setting on the Mambo?

Another similar trick which a lot of us use is getting the treble side of the pickup quite close to the strings, but backing off the bass side by as much as 5mm, which keeps a fat treble sound but lowers the bass content and cleans up the sound. You can adjust the bass side polepieces upwards a bit, which also cleans up the bass sound by making it more 'single-coil' sounding.

In the end, of course, it's all down to personal taste....

Thanks so much! This is really helpful. It is good to know that I am not crazy for disliking the Classic 57s on the 175 - even better to have such a well informed diagnosis of why

I have the BKs in at the moment and so I will try raising the treble side. It may do the trick. I am, however, concerned that they are really thin and weak sounding

I suspect that I will be looking for replacement pickups. Following your advice, do you think that the Bulldog 'Fat' PAF might be a good option? And do you have any views on the Benedetto A6 (and does that work in the bridge?)

thanks again

david

[Franz 1997]

Thanks so much! This is really helpful. It is good to know that I am not crazy for disliking the Classic 57s on the 175 - even better to have such a well informed diagnosis of why

I have the BKs in at the moment and so I will try raising the treble side. It may do the trick. I am, however, concerned that they are really thin and weak sounding

I suspect that I will be looking for replacement pickups. Following your advice, do you think that the Bulldog 'Fat' PAF might be a good option? And do you have any views on the Benedetto A6 (and does that work in the bridge?)

thanks again

david

Last things first, I do have a Bulldog fat PAF - but, in a carved top Slaman guitar. It's a mid-heavy pickup, so I would be doubtful it would do what you want in a plywood 175. The cool or vintage options seem better to me, based on what you have said. I've no experience of the Benedetto A6; it's a very high wind pickup, but that in isolation doesn't mean much.

Have you tried your BK's up close to the strings? it seems very strange that the BK sounds so weak; I'd expect a sound not too dis-similar from the Classics, in output terms, maybe a little less. They shouldn't sound very thin. If the sound output is very thin & weak in the neck position only, I'd suspect the new wiring. Or, very rarely, a new pickup gets demagnetised, usualy from shock. Easy test: apply steel screwdriver to the poles and sense the magnetic pull, then compare to the good pickup. If your BK pickup has 4 wires coming from it, is it possible that it has been wrongly wired to connect just one coil? That would certainly be thin and weak.....if there's any way you have access to a multi-meter, I'd suggest checking the pickup's dc resistance.

[lammie200]

I don't have these pickups, but I have Kinmans in my Strat and Jazzmaster. I really like them and I suspect that all of the pickups that they make are pretty high quality and perform exactly how they are described. I don't know if you could say Kinmans are "boutique" but I am not sure why that would matter. I do believe that Chris Kinman has done a lot of research over an extended period of time to develop what he sells. Of all the pickup makers that I have seen, I have not seen anyone that discloses more information than he does about his research, development, and products. He has thought of everything from string spacings, to wound G strings, to whether you want his logo on the cover or not. Great customer service, too.

[Fred Archtop]

You should try a Charlie Christian PU in the humbucker format. Pete Biltoft makes great models. I have one on my ES-300 and it is divine.

Cheers.

[lesyeuxnoirs]

Last things first, I do have a Bulldog fat PAF - but, in a carved top Slaman guitar. It's a mid-heavy pickup, so I would be doubtful it would do what you want in a plywood 175. The cool or vintage options seem better to me, based on what you have said. I've no experience of the Benedetto A6; it's a very high wind pickup, but that in isolation doesn't mean much.

Have you tried your BK's up close to the strings? it seems very strange that the BK sounds so weak; I'd expect a sound not too dis-similar from the Classics, in output terms, maybe a little less. They shouldn't sound very thin. If the sound output is very thin & weak in the neck position only, I'd suspect the new wiring. Or, very rarely, a new pickup gets demagnetised, usualy from shock. Easy test: apply steel screwdriver to the poles and sense the magnetic pull, then compare to the good pickup. If your BK pickup has 4 wires coming from it, is it possible that it has been wrongly wired to connect just one coil? That would certainly be thin and weak.....if there's any way you have access to a multi-meter, I'd suggest checking the pickup's dc resistance.

Thank so much - really appreciate your detailed and informed responses.

The DC resistance is pretty much as it should be and it is the two wire version

It probably isn't too different to the classic 57s and I could stand to move it closer to the strings, so i'll try that

Just so I am clear - why would the cool/vintage options be better? I am looking for a nice fat sound (I think that the Manhattan P90s that I have are very mid-heavy and I quite like that). Do you have any recommendations for an aftermarket 't top' style pick up? I thought that the Bull Dog FAT PAF might fit the bill given that it is Alnico 5...

[sgosnell]

One of the advantages of the HCC pickup (the one Fred mentioned) is that it ships with two different magnet types of your choice, and they're easy to swap, so you can get slightly different sounds from it. You can also buy extra magnets for very little money. Pete will work with you to try to get the sound you want. I have one of those pickups in an old Epi plywood guitar, and it's the best sound I've found for that guitar, and I've gone through many. It's not a humbucker, but it's pretty quiet.

[Franz 1997]

David, I might be a bit confused as to what you are looking for, having read your last post. To me, a P90 sound - or most singlecoil sounds- is thinner and clearer than a HB sound, because of the Hbs 2 coils next to each other -there's a tech explanation ( phase cancellation). Single coil sounds are great sounds in their own right, especially CC pickups, but to my ear they will always have greater clarity ( which you want) and less fatness ( but you also want fatness). The only single coil pickup I know which sounds both clear and fat is the Charlie Christian pickup, which I have used in HB format and which gives beautifully fat top string sounds and clear basses. It's noisy, but not too bad away from the amp. So, if you find the P90 to be 'fat', the CC will be even fatter.

OK, about the bulldog pickups, I think I misunderstod what you were after. The other two bulldog pickups will have less middle, more clarity, but less top string fatness. The Fat PAF probably would work, if you ask Hayden to wind the coils to about 7.5 K and keep the A5 magnet, for clarity. But you might like to consider a CC pickup in HB format, which would give clear and fat at the same time. Disclaimer; I have only used CC pickups wound with traditional 38 awg wire and with low resistance from Lollar and Rautia. Fred has used others, and could comment

Hope this of some help. As for aftermarket pickups similar to T tops, any well made HB with 7- 7.5K dc resistance, 42 awg wire and an A5 magnet should do the job. Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan, and many other make them. Boutique makes like Aaron armstrong, Hayden at Bulldog and no doubt others could easily wind them, T tops are a pretty well known HB architecture and Gibson churned them out by the tens of thousands from the late 60s to the 80s. They are like PAF's but with different coloured insulated wire and an A5 magnet; called T tops because the bobbins had a letter T in the top to help workers assemble the pickup correctly. Clever....

[.02$]

Have you considered a higher value volume and tone pot? Cheep way to get the mud out.

[Herbie]

As You maybe have noticed: the pickup swap might be a so called rabbit hole!

I am a constant – but lately more and more reluctant – pickup swapper for my ES-175 VOS. It is 1PU so only the neck pu to swap but anyway.

My latest answer to stock 57 muddiness is Seymour Duncan SH-1 – but with Alnico 3 magnet. My guitar is too bright for bright pickups (f.ex. P90’s) so the SH-1’s stock Alnico 5 was too much.

I love the natural compression of the humbucker so Alnico 2 or 3 are great for that. A4 has too ’hard’ response, even its sonic spectrum would be ideal.

The A2 in this SH-1 had too much lows – much less than 57 – but now I have been very satisfied to A3 magnet with this pu. Not muddy at all, enough highs but not too much and just great naturally compressing response. Warm and clear.

With Pyramid .013 Flatwounds. Different strings give different sounds too!

Good luck with the quest!

[Cunamara]

However, I really don't like them now that I have installed them. I can tell that they are a good pick up but I cannot get them to sound how I would like. They sound very weak and thin, and not at all what I would want out of a 175 (actually the bridge pickup is very good but I hardly ever use that!)

By rep these are good pickups. Are they correctly wired? Your description sounds like the coils are in parallel rather than series, not too hard to do with 4 conductor pickups.

[Cunamara]

You should try a Charlie Christian PU in the humbucker format. Pete Biltoft makes great models. I have one on my ES-300 and it is divine.

I have the floating version of this on my carvetop. Pete spent some time talking with me to understand the sound I was looking for, which in my case is basically the mid/late 50s Jim Hall kind of tone (when he was using the P90 in his ES-175, such as on his recordings with Art Farmer and Sonny Rollins)- a mix of an electric tome and an acoustic sound. It's not a thunky Joe Pass sound, but it's a floater rather than a set-in pickup on a solid top rather than a laminated top. I think it's a pickup that responds well to the guitar, certainly worth a chat with Pete @ Vintage Vibe Guitar.

[Irez87]

The CC's that Pete makes sound wonderfully warm and crisp at the high end, but...

I must not look at pickup threads anymore...

Instead of a pup, I am now looking at replacing the speaker on my DVLJ amp. Pickups, I know a little about. Speakers, on the other hand... yikes!

But yeah, if I were to get new pups--and I was confident with the single coil sound--I would get those Pete Vintage Vibe CC's.

So... speakers? Crud, do I have to start another thread on speakers... you'll all hate me by the end of this tone journey!

[Herbie]

The CC's that Pete makes sound wonderfully warm and crisp at the high end, but...

I must not look at pickup threads anymore...

Instead of a pup, I am now looking at replacing the speaker on my DVLJ amp. Pickups, I know a little about. Speakers, on the other hand... yikes!

But yeah, if I were to get new pups--and I was confident with the single coil sound--I would get those Pete Vintage Vibe CC's.

So... speakers? Crud, do I have to start another thread on speakers... you'll all hate me by the end of this tone journey!

No worry, a lot of us are there on the same tone journey.

Sometimes I enjoy it but when I don't, I comfort myself thinking that most of the time even Wes Montgomery did not like his sound.

Wes was a succesful musician and a father of seven children so maybe swapping guitar pickups and speakers were not first thing to think for him!

[LtKojak]

My latest answer to stock 57 muddiness is Seymour Duncan SH-1 – but with an Alnico 3 magnet

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Look no further. That A3-modded '59 neck is simply the perfect neck p'up for an ES-175. You can even have it for next to nothing, if acquired 2nd hand. Another five bucks for the magnet and you're in business.

HTH,

[jorgemg1984]

I've had a Stormy Monday for a really long time in a 1965 Guild X-500. Before I had a Cassic 57, now I have an APH-2 from SD. I thought the Classic 57 was a little uninspiring and bland, not bad but not good either. The SM, to my ears, it's a Jim Hall pickup - it gives that sweet acoustic jazz tone but not the full fat PAF sound. In the end, I wanted the last, not the former. The APH-2 was perfect for that, it's fat but more clear than the Classic 57 - although I stll have to use a graphic eq with my Polytone. I also briefly tried a 36th Di Marzio and loved it. In my opinion, there's no need to go boutique, somewhere in the DiMarzio or SD range you should find something useful.

[Herbie]

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Look no further. That A3-modded '59 neck is simply the perfect neck p'up for an ES-175. You can even have it for next to nothing, if acquired 2nd hand. Another five bucks for the magnet and you're in business.

HTH,

Yes, I was very delighted when I found this combination.

...but this is part of the disease: lately I have been toying with an idea what would the SH-55 alias Seth Lover sound with A3 magnet... In this ES175 the stock SH-55 is just too bright. But I’ll try to play more and tinker less.

[lesyeuxnoirs]

Thanks all

Some really great suggestions

[LtKojak]

I have been toying with an idea what would the SH-55 alias Seth Lover sound with A3 magnet

Generally speaking, it becomes a little bit on the thin side to be of my liking, if you ask me. The A2 is the right design choice for the SL, specially when put in a guitar where the neck p'up is located as if it was a 22-fretter, like the ES-175. I can't imagine any other application for an A3-modded SL than in a 20-fretter with an unwanted resonance peak in the mid-lows, as several korean-made, L-5 copies that came through my workbench at some time or another had.

In this ES175 the stock SH-55 is just too bright

If that's so, then the neck p'up is not set-up right. Try the following two things:
#1: put all polepieces flush with the cover.
#2: set it closer to the strings. As the starting point, fret the 6th string at the last fret, then adjust the distance from the top of the p'ups cover to both the 6th and 1st strings the 1st to 2.4mm. Final tweaking must be done by ear, but you'll be a lot closer.

HTH,

[rolijen]

The Duncan Seth Lover pickups are great in a laminate guitar. I really like them. They are silky smooth with no mud.

Roli

[Jabberwocky]

Have you tried moving the good-sounding BK bridge to the neck position? Since you hardly use the bridge it matters not what you have there.

Don't know what your ideal of good tone is but I like very lightly wax-potted Alnico 2 low wind pick ups, in general.

[helios]

I like these: