Ampeg Amps to Get that ‘50s Jazz Guitar Sound

[Bill Eisele]

Hi All,

I know this has been covered before in various threads and I also realize that tone is primarily in the hands of the guitarist and also due to the recording chain when listening to recordings. However I would like to get as close as possible to the tone I hear on jazz guitar recordings from the 1950s. And apologies for mentioning a seminal warhorse of that era, but Johnny Smith’s Moonlight in Vermont is my tonal touchstone for that era.

I understand that he most likely recorded direct into the board rather than his amp being mic’ed and then directed into the board. And, single coil pickups are necessary. What I’m wondering about is the most appropriate and readily available amp to get close to that tone. It would seem that an Ampeg amp close to that era would be most appropriate, but they are difficult to find. It seems that Ampeg amps from the late 50s through the mid 60s are more available. These would include the Rhapsody, Mercury, Gemini I and II, Jet, and ReverbeRocket. I understand some of these amps came with either 6V6 or 7591 power tubes and either octal preamp tubes or 12ax7 preamp tubes.

Which Ampeg amp, power tubes and preamp tubes would get closest to the tone I’m looking for? My guess is that octal preamp tubes would be most appropriate. But given that, would 6V6 or 7591 power tubes be more appropriate? I’ve heard that the 6V6 tubes have a warmer sound but the 7591 tubes are less prone to breakup when pushed, hence a cleaner tone. I didn’t mention speakers but I assume that the era correct speaker would be an AlNiCo.

And, then there are the various early Fender octal tweed clones such as Carl’s Custom Amps, and Valco and Gibson clones such as Vintage 47 amps. Would any of those get close to the tone I’m seeking? And I came across a Frenzel amp head that incorporates an early octal Fender tone stack: frenzeltubeamps.com - Retro Deluxe Plus. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this amp.

I should mention that I currently have a Rivera Jazz Suprema 55 watt amp with a 12” speaker. It’s a superb amp but seems to have a more modern tone that’s not as lush and harmonically complex as what I’m looking for. I do have a Nocturne Jr. Barnyard pedal on the way at some point and am curious as to how close I can get with my current Rivera amp.

Any information and experiences with any of these amps would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill

[marcwhy]

Hey Bill,
I have a Frenzel "Retro Deluxe," which is last year's 6V6 model (the new "Plus" uses 6L6's). I've owned a few of Jim's amps, and you can't beat the price for the quality you get! The Retro uses the octal preamp tubes, and it's a cool, little amp!

I don't like the metal "cage" cabs, so Jim just made the chassis, and I sent it to Jeff at JDesign Cabs, and he made the cab; here it is on the Buscarino Chameleon (1x8), so you see it's fairly small:



Marc

[Hammertone]

... It would seem that an Ampeg amp close to that era would be most appropriate, but they are difficult to find. It seems that Ampeg amps from the late 50s through the mid 60s are more available. These would include the Rhapsody, Mercury, Gemini I and II, Jet, and ReverbeRocket. I understand some of these amps came with either 6V6 or 7591 power tubes and either octal preamp tubes or 12ax7 preamp tubes.

Which Ampeg amp, power tubes and preamp tubes would get closest to the tone I’m looking for? My guess is that octal preamp tubes would be most appropriate. But given that, would 6V6 or 7591 power tubes be more appropriate? I’ve heard that the 6V6 tubes have a warmer sound but the 7591 tubes are less prone to breakup when pushed, hence a cleaner tone. I didn’t mention speakers but I assume that the era correct speaker would be an AlNiCo.

I should mention that I currently have a Rivera Jazz Suprema 55 watt amp with a 12” speaker. It’s a superb amp but....

Rivera makes GREAT amps (I have a couple that are wonderful) - just a different thing.

This is not hard. Get an old Ampeg. They are not that hard to find. They are not expensive. They are dead easy to fix and maintain. There are some great old Ampeg models powered by 6V6 or 6L6 tubes, with octal preamp tubes, tube rectifiers and Baxandall tone circuits. And there are plenty of great 12" and 15" AlNiCo speakers from which to choose, both old and new.

Here are a couple from Ampeg's "Universal" line-up (hint: Universal = stripped-out, cheaper):

Ampeg M-12 - 1x12 combo, introduced in '57, puts out 15 watts via 2x6V6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency AlNiCo speaker (JBL D120F/K120, Altec 417, or EV-SRO, if it will fit), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

Ampeg M-15 "Big M" - 1x15 combo, introduced in '59, puts out 20 watts via 2x6L6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency, wide-range AlNiCo speaker (JBL D130/K130, Altec 418), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

These amps are not as complex (less stuff to break) as some of the other, earlier '50s Ampegs, but they are also not hard to find and sound great. In '64, Ampeg switched to 7591 tubes in the M-12, and renamed it the M-12-A. Both this and the M-15 Big M were gone by the end of '64 - too old-school and, you know, '50s.

Or get an old Bogen Challenger CH30 amp head from the late '40s and get it cleaned up/modded for guitar. These are dirt cheap. I recently found one and it's got the goods. Then you can goof with different speaker cabs.

[Cunamara]

Well, Moonlight in Vermont was recorded using a D'Angelico Excel (that properly belonged to John Collins) with a DeArmond 1100 pickup. There may have been no amp and he may have plugged in direct to the desk at the studio. He used various amps including the Ampeg Fountain of Sound, an Emrad and he spoke well of Music Man amps, Not to mention probably many gigs with whatever the house amplifier was. He did not like Fender amps due to the mid range scoop and pronounced bass. Gibson made an amp to his specifications that was made in very small quantities. I suspect if he was still alive and playing today he'd be using something like an Acoustic Image Clarus amp; he wanted an amp with a flat total response that did not color the sound.

Listen to forum member Joe DeNisco's videos on YouTube, particularly the ones played on his Gibson or Heritage Johnny Smith guitars or his D'Angelico. Most of those are recorded through a Zoom G5N multi pedal direct into the computer. To my ears this works very well and is very simple for that kind of application. In a gig setting, running that direct to the PA might create a similar result.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have a 64 Reverberocket and DV Mark Little Jazz.

I prefer the old Ampeg, but, honestly, they don't sound all that different.

[gitman]

With some clever and fine-tuned eq-ing in front of your amp (with either a dedicated EQ box and/or some sort of preamplifier/dirt box) AND a really cheap cable (or a better one but 25' long) you should get "better" results. Don't forget the heavy limiting effect of the old tape machines and 50's outboard gear which today is simulated with either plug-ins for your DAW or with outside units , all of which will/can fatten up and put a limiting effect on the signal. It might also be effective to run the amp at a higher volume level - to avoid possible hassle with the neighbors use a loading device (speaker attenuator) between the amp and the speaker or put the speaker/cab into an isolation box.
Besides these technical aspects : work on your picking technique, put heavy (flatwound) strings on your guitar and practice ;-)

542 - Rupert Neve Designed 500 Series Tape Emulator

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixin...-best-plugins/

[SandChannel]

How about something like a tweed Fender Deluxe?

[Bill Eisele]

Hey Bill,
I have a Frenzel "Retro Deluxe," which is last year's 6V6 model (the new "Plus" uses 6L6's). I've owned a few of Jim's amps, and you can't beat the price for the quality you get! The Retro uses the octal preamp tubes, and it's a cool, little amp!

I don't like the metal "cage" cabs, so Jim just made the chassis, and I sent it to Jeff at JDesign Cabs, and he made the cab; here it is on the Buscarino Chameleon (1x8), so you see it's fairly small:



Marc

That looks great, Marc! Looks very portable too. The amps do seem to be a bargain given the point to point build and components. How does the amp sound through the Chameleon? I would think the combination of the two would be quite nice.

[Bill Eisele]

Rivera makes GREAT amps (I have a couple that are wonderful) - just a different thing.

This is not hard. Get an old Ampeg. They are not that hard to find. They are not expensive. They are dead easy to fix and maintain. There are some great old Ampeg models powered by 6V6 or 6L6 tubes, with octal preamp tubes, tube rectifiers and Baxandall tone circuits. And there are plenty of great 12" and 15" AlNiCo speakers from which to choose, both old and new.

Here are a couple from Ampeg's "Universal" line-up (hint: Universal = stripped-out, cheaper):

Ampeg M-12 - 1x12 combo, introduced in '57, puts out 15 watts via 2x6V6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency AlNiCo speaker (JBL D120F/K120, Altec 417, or EV-SRO, if it will fit), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

Ampeg M-15 "Big M" - 1x15 combo, introduced in '59, puts out 20 watts via 2x6L6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency, wide-range AlNiCo speaker (JBL D130/K130, Altec 418), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

These amps are not as complex (less stuff to break) as some of the other, earlier '50s Ampegs, but they are also not hard to find and sound great. In '64, Ampeg switched to 7591 tubes in the M-12, and renamed it the M-12-A. Both this and the M-15 Big M were gone by the end of '64 - too old-school and, you know, '50s.

Or get an old Bogen Challenger CH30 amp head from the late '40s and get it cleaned up/modded for guitar. These are dirt cheap. I recently found one and it's got the goods. Then you can goof with different speaker cabs.

Thanks for your reply, Hammertone. I will definitely look for the M-12 and M-15 amps. They were not on my radar as I was not aware of their existence. The same goes for the Bogen amp head. And I really do like the Rivera, but as you say, just different. This is why I appreciate the forum so much. Great advice and expertise!

[marcwhy]

That looks great, Marc! Looks very portable too. The amps do seem to be a bargain given the point to point build and components. How does the amp sound through the Chameleon? I would think the combination of the two would be quite nice.

Thanks! Jim is a great guy to work with, and he knows "sound!"

I use a reverb pedal, too, which fills up the space a bit. The Frenzel/Chameleon sound great together, although you have to turn it up a bit to get a sweet spot. With my 1x12 cab, though, the sweet spot comes much sooner! [and that lil' bugger can get loud!]

[Bill Eisele]

Well, Moonlight in Vermont was recorded using a D'Angelico Excel (that properly belonged to John Collins) with a DeArmond 1100 pickup. There may have been no amp and he may have plugged in direct to the desk at the studio. He used various amps including the Ampeg Fountain of Sound, an Emrad and he spoke well of Music Man amps, Not to mention probably many gigs with whatever the house amplifier was. He did not like Fender amps due to the mid range scoop and pronounced bass. Gibson made an amp to his specifications that was made in very small quantities. I suspect if he was still alive and playing today he'd be using something like an Acoustic Image Clarus amp; he wanted an amp with a flat total response that did not color the sound.

Listen to forum member Joe DeNisco's videos on YouTube, particularly the ones played on his Gibson or Heritage Johnny Smith guitars or his D'Angelico. Most of those are recorded through a Zoom G5N multi pedal direct into the computer. To my ears this works very well and is very simple for that kind of application. In a gig setting, running that direct to the PA might create a similar result.

Interesting background information, Cunamara. I guess we need a time machine to go back to the recording session! There’s similar speculation as to what amp Kenny Burrell played through during the Midnight Blue recording session in RVG’s studio. Most think it was a Fender Deluxe that resided in the studio.

It would seem that besides having Johnny Smith’s incredible talent and touch, the tone starts with a single coil pickup, preferably the DeArmond 1100 pickup. And, then playing through an amp or direct to a computer where the response is flat, as you say. I don’t have any guitars with a single coil pickup, but am considering changing out the Asian Kent Armstrong floating humbucker on one of my Eastmans for a US hand wound version. He makes a single coil floating pickup that’s the same exact size as the current pickup. Sorry to say, but a D’Angelico Excel is not in my immediate future!

And, I’m a big fan of Joe’s so will revisit his YouTube videos. His playing and tone are wonderful. I’m interested in how tone can be shaped using an outboard device like the Zoom or via DAW software.

Thanks!

[Bill Eisele]

I have a 64 Reverberocket and DV Mark Little Jazz.

I prefer the old Ampeg, but, honestly, they don't sound all that different.

Interesting comparison, rpjazz. I have a Little Jazz, but mostly play through my Rivera. I will spend some time playing through it. I wonder if the commonality is the flatter frequency response compared to the Fender amps.

[patshep]

Reverbrocket II had a super 50's sound as I remember, perfect for that, and cheap for a vintage amp

[Bill Eisele]

With some clever and fine-tuned eq-ing in front of your amp (with either a dedicated EQ box and/or some sort of preamplifier/dirt box) AND a really cheap cable (or a better one but 25' long) you should get "better" results. Don't forget the heavy limiting effect of the old tape machines and 50's outboard gear which today is simulated with either plug-ins for your DAW or with outside units , all of which will/can fatten up and put a limiting effect on the signal. It might also be effective to run the amp at a higher volume level - to avoid possible hassle with the neighbors use a loading device (speaker attenuator) between the amp and the speaker or put the speaker/cab into an isolation box.
Besides these technical aspects : work on your picking technique, put heavy (flatwound) strings on your guitar and practice ;-)

542 - Rupert Neve Designed 500 Series Tape Emulator

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixin...-best-plugins/

Excellent ideas, gitman. I have a tc electronic MojoMojo and tech21 Blonde pedal that I have experimented with to get a little dirt into the tone. And, a Nocturne Jr. Barnyard is on the way. So, I will continue to work with those and a friend has suggested using an EQ pedal as well. Luckily, the Rivera has both a gain and master volume control so I can run the preamp hotter without getting complaints about excessive volume. I’m not yet into recording so I don’t have an opportunity to manipulate tone in a DAW or using outboard devices. I’m afraid that’s another rabbit hole from which I would never escape time and money wise ;-)

And, I use flatwounds on my guitars except the acoustics archtops, work on my picking technique (and shamefully admit that I have a huge collection of picks because of my quest for tone), and indeed do need to continue to practice. Thanks!

[Bill Eisele]

How about something like a tweed Fender Deluxe?

The early Fender tweeds do interest me. The vintage ones are outside my price point but there are some clones for much less money such as Carl’s Custom Amps. He makes certain early models with octal tubed preamps. The concern is flat frequency response associated with the Ampeg tone stack versus the Fender tone stack with the midrange dip. It’s difficult to find videos and tracks of these various amps online played in a clean jazz tone style to get a sense of the tonal differences. Most if not all are played with lots of overdrive in a blues or rock style.

[Bill Eisele]

Thanks! Jim is a great guy to work with, and he knows "sound!"

I use a reverb pedal, too, which fills up the space a bit. The Frenzel/Chameleon sound great together, although you have to turn it up a bit to get a sweet spot. With my 1x12 cab, though, the sweet spot comes much sooner! [and that lil' bugger can get loud!]

It sounds like a winner from all aspects, Marc! I run a tc electronic hall of fame reverb pedal through my DV Mark Little Jazz and really like it in that context. The Rivera has its own spring reverb which is very nice, so no need for the pedal. If you ever get a chance to record through the Frenzel and your speakers, I’d love to hear them. I don’t recall finding any examples of the Frenzel online, at least in a jazz context. Thanks!

[Bill Eisele]

Reverbrocket II had a super 50's sound as I remember, perfect for that, and cheap for a vintage amp

Yes, I’ve seen them online and seem quite reasonable, particularly when compared to vintage Fenders. I have an amp repair guy available so no problem getting one up to speed in terms of playing and from a safety perspective.

[Bill Eisele]

Not sure if this book has been mentioned before on the forum, but this seems like a good way to get up to speed on the history of Ampeg the company and its amps: Ampeg: The Story Behind the Sound (Amazon.com: Ampeg: The Story Behind the Sound (0073999321838): Gregg Hopkins, Bill Moore: Books).

[marcwhy]

It sounds like a winner from all aspects, Marc! I run a tc electronic hall of fame reverb pedal through my DV Mark Little Jazz and really like it in that context. The Rivera has its own spring reverb which is very nice, so no need for the pedal. If you ever get a chance to record through the Frenzel and your speakers, I’d love to hear them. I don’t recall finding any examples of the Frenzel online, at least in a jazz context. Thanks!

Go back to the Frenzel page you linked above: there are two clips ("Cool jazz 1 & 2") from another cat -- he has a nice sound!

[Bill Eisele]

Go back to the Frenzel page you linked above: there are two clips ("Cool jazz 1 & 2") from another cat -- he has a nice sound!

Thanks for pointing that out, Marc! Not sure how I missed those clips. I really like the tone on Cool Jazz 2. Nice warm and fat tone. Close to what I’m looking for.

[rpjazzguitar]

Interesting comparison, rpjazz. I have a Little Jazz, but mostly play through my Rivera. I will spend some time playing through it. I wonder if the commonality is the flatter frequency response compared to the Fender amps.

That makes sense. I noticed that adjustments in EQ made more difference than changing which amp I was plugged into. As I did the A-B comparison, my wife, who has heard a lot of amps, couldn't tell which was which.

The way I did it was not to try to run each amp "flat". Rather, I adjusted the EQ in each amp to get my sound. I used the reverb in each amp, but I added reverb also, with a Boss ME80 - which is how I usually play.

[Cunamara]

And there is the lovely-looking Sequel "Vermont" amp dedicated to JS:

SeQuel VERMONT [to Johnny Smith] - SeQuel Jazz Amplifiers

[Bill Eisele]

Rivera makes GREAT amps (I have a couple that are wonderful) - just a different thing.

This is not hard. Get an old Ampeg. They are not that hard to find. They are not expensive. They are dead easy to fix and maintain. There are some great old Ampeg models powered by 6V6 or 6L6 tubes, with octal preamp tubes, tube rectifiers and Baxandall tone circuits. And there are plenty of great 12" and 15" AlNiCo speakers from which to choose, both old and new.

Here are a couple from Ampeg's "Universal" line-up (hint: Universal = stripped-out, cheaper):

Ampeg M-12 - 1x12 combo, introduced in '57, puts out 15 watts via 2x6V6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency AlNiCo speaker (JBL D120F/K120, Altec 417, or EV-SRO, if it will fit), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

Ampeg M-15 "Big M" - 1x15 combo, introduced in '59, puts out 20 watts via 2x6L6 tubes, has all the stuff you need PLUS tremolo. Only a single tone control, but put a high efficiency, wide-range AlNiCo speaker (JBL D130/K130, Altec 418), and jumper the inputs, and you are good to go.

These amps are not as complex (less stuff to break) as some of the other, earlier '50s Ampegs, but they are also not hard to find and sound great. In '64, Ampeg switched to 7591 tubes in the M-12, and renamed it the M-12-A. Both this and the M-15 Big M were gone by the end of '64 - too old-school and, you know, '50s.

Or get an old Bogen Challenger CH30 amp head from the late '40s and get it cleaned up/modded for guitar. These are dirt cheap. I recently found one and it's got the goods. Then you can goof with different speaker cabs.

Hammertone, just located and bought an M-15 on Reverb (from parent company CME): Ampeg M-15 Big M 20W 1x15 Combo 1960s (s105)
Ampeg M-15 Big M | Reverb. Looking forward to playing through it. Will report in when it arrives. It was the only one on Reverb. It has a JBL D140F in it. Several of the M-12s available. Thanks for the heads up!

[Bill Eisele]

And there is the lovely-looking Sequel "Vermont" amp dedicated to JS:

SeQuel VERMONT [to Johnny Smith] - SeQuel Jazz Amplifiers

Yes, I’ve been interested in the SeQuel amps. Don’t seem to be many out there. I’m curious about their line. Most have tube power sections but the Vermont has a 350 watt solid state class D power section. The other amps in their line have clips on the website (they sound great) but not the Vermont. I wonder how it sounds and if anyone on the forum owns one and could report on their experience with it.

[Bill Eisele]

That makes sense. I noticed that adjustments in EQ made more difference than changing which amp I was plugged into. As I did the A-B comparison, my wife, who has heard a lot of amps, couldn't tell which was which.

The way I did it was not to try to run each amp "flat". Rather, I adjusted the EQ in each amp to get my sound. I used the reverb in each amp, but I added reverb also, with a Boss ME80 - which is how I usually play.

Good point in terms of not just setting the tone controls to their 12 o’clock position but to adjust by ear. What I find difficult, especially moving from one amp to another, is the interaction between the tone controls, and between the tone controls and the volume settings. This is especially apparent on the Little Jazz. Not totally straightforward. The Rivera can be difficult to dial in as well because it not only has the usual tone controls but it also has presence and focus controls and a “fat” switch which damps down the higher frequencies. And, on both amps, I find that each guitar requires different amp settings based I guess primarily on the type of pickup.