A Shrunk Down Fender Twin Reverb?

[Sam Sherry]

THERE we go, Lawson -- the Fender Mini Twin! The rich sound of two 3" speakers . . . the thunderous roar of 1.00 Watts, more or less . . . the robust EQ section providing "more tone" or "less tone."

FMIC describes it as, "Fender tone at a fraction of the size." As many have noted above, "There is nothing like a Twin." This, my friends . . . this is nothing like a Twin!

$49.95 at Sweatwater or Guitar Denter.

[paulkogut]

My Deluxe had all the bells and whistles, channel switching, effects loops, etc, Harry's mods sounded great, but the amp would break down on a regular basis. Since a lot of the guts were gooped to hide Harry's trade secrets, what might have been a minor repair in other circumstances had to be dragged back to Harry on 20th St. I don't think a simple switching out 6V6 for 6L6 and a heavier speaker would cause any reliability issues.

PK

[vinnyv1k]

Yes Jack. I have back trouble too. My Twin stays home now. Still my favorite sounding amp. Great reverb too.
Getting old sucks. In my 20’s I could lug one around no problem. Wheels help but the lifting in and out of your vehicle forget it. They will always be the benchmark tone IMO though. The new GB Twin is 15lbs lighter but I have not heard one yet.

[John A.]

This is what never made any kind of sense to me. A guy will go out and spend thousands on a L5 and buy a Blue Jr. to plug it into.
That is like putting recap tires on a Porsche. IMO spending less than $1K on a amp is a waste of money unless you can only afford cheap. A great guitar deserves a great amp.
As far as a Twin goes nothing sounds like a Twin except another Twin. You can get close but no cigar. I can get close with my Henriksen 312 but only close. I love my H until I plug into my Twin. The Twin is the King of amp tone IMO like the L5 is king of archtops. Yes they are heavy. Eat some Wheaties and Spinach. I do admit mine never leaves the house.
No substitution for cubic inches.

There are so many great amps that cost less than $1k that I don't think it makes sense to set the threshold so high. Also, irrespective of price, it's a matter of taste. I would actually rather have the Princeton Reverb I own or a Blues Jr than a Twin. There is no "king of amps" or "king of guitars". There is only "the guitar and amp one likes".


John

[Hammertone]

I laugh at you puny earthlings with your puny Twin Reverbs.

[jzucker]

i once purchased a peavey mace and ordered it with Altec Lansings. The mace with stock speakers is over 100lbs. This was the amp I was going to take with me to the University Of Miami as a jazz guitar major. Lucky for me, peavey couldn't obtain the altecs and the order got canceled! With the altecs, I'm guessing 125lbs!

[KirkP]

The pro reverb and bandmaster are different amps. The bandmaster uses less plate voltage on the 6L6s and both have smaller output transformers giving you more saturation (less headroom). Some folks like that sound, some don't. If you compare a super reverb or '64 vibroverb output transformer with a pro or bandmaster you'll see they are 2x the size.

The schematics of the silver face models are identical, down to the part numbers. Both would have smaller output and power transformers from a Twin since they only have two output tubes.

One major difference between a Twin Reverb and Pro Reverb is that the latter has a tube rectifier. I think that would make the Pro compress more when driven hard. Of course, it could be converted to solid state with a couple of resistor changes to correct voltages, and rebiasing.

Note that the Bandmaster non-reverb model is much different from it’s Reverb namesake, as it has a solid state rectifier. It also has voltages within 20 volts of a Twin Reverb. The Vibrato channel gain is too low (due to loss in the Intensity pot), but the Normal channel is surprisingly Twin-like. I have one, but I haven’t used it recently as it needs a recap.




I’m hiding this from my wife as she laughs at me for looking at schematics. :-)

[vinnyv1k]

There are so many great amps that cost less than $1k that I don't think it makes sense to set the threshold so high. Also, irrespective of price, it's a matter of taste. I would actually rather have the Princeton Reverb I own or a Blues Jr than a Twin. There is no "king of amps" or "king of guitars". There is only "the guitar and amp one likes".


John

A new Princeton is $1K and a very good amp. A Blues Jr. is a pile of junk. Pull off the back cover and see for yourself. Junk components. Buy cheap get cheap. I stand by my $1K rule. Talking new not used.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts on the mythological smaller, lighter weight Twin Reverb amplifier:

• There are a number of AB763 circuit clones out there BUT...
• The Twin Reverb has large PT and OT
• Twin Reverb has two 12" efficient 8 ohm speakers
• Twin Reverb as a long Reverb Tank
• Twin Reverb has a middle control in its EQ (not all AB763s do)

Can you find a Fenderesque "Blackface" sounding amplifier that is portable, loud enough clean headroom volume that sounds great? Yes, of course you can. Will it sound like a Twin Reverb? Unlikely. a Twin Reverb is a sum of its parts. Those parts require size and weight IMO.

My tube amp, sounds great to me. It does BF sounds and Tweed sounds and is in a small package and weighs between 31 to 37 lb. depending on the speaker that I use. 40 watts in a 1 x 12 is plenty loud to play cleanly over a drummer. The compromise I made was to have to use a digital reverb pedal to get a 15" chassis.

My $.02

[John A.]

A new Princeton is $1K and a very good amp. A Blues Jr. is a pile of junk. Pull off the back cover and see for yourself. Junk components. Buy cheap get cheap. I stand by my $1K rule. Talking new not used.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. There are many great amps for well under $1k. An L5 or other high end guitar is not somehow diminished by being played through an inexpensive amp that its user likes, nor is it complemented by an amp its user dislikes, no matter how much that amp costs.

John

[jorgemg1984]

I would add a new Princeton is probably full of cheap components too. An old Polytone is one of my favourite amps for jazz and can be had for dirt cheap in the US.

[jzucker]

A new Princeton is $1K and a very good amp. A Blues Jr. is a pile of junk. Pull off the back cover and see for yourself. Junk components. Buy cheap get cheap. I stand by my $1K rule. Talking new not used.

it's not so cut and dry IMO. Tons of great guitarists use cheaper amps. Bollenback used $375 roland cubes and polytones for years. Dan Wilson has literally toured the world using a fender HRD with "junk components".

Amps like quilter defy the traditional descriptions. Built like a tank, super reliable and very inexpensive.

But I definitely get the OP's sentiment that it seems folks on this forum are ok with spending $5k on an archtop but then play it through a $350 amp. Whether that's good, bad or doesn't matter is not the point. It's just an interesting topic.

[Hammertone]

I haven't A/B'd it with any Fender amps, but I suspect that Channel 2 of this (and a few other similar Rivera combos) provides a wide range of excellent Fender tones (and Marshall tones from Channel 1, for that matter) given Paul Rivera's extremely intimate familiarity with Fender. This Fandango is 55watt/1x12", smaller and lighter than a Twin at 53 pounds (weight according to Rivera). It's one hell of a nice combo amp. My guess is that one could adjust this amp to get close enough to a "Twin" sound to do the job.

The 55 watt version is also be available as a 212" combo (which one could adjust to get even closer to a "Twin" sound) as well as head-only versions. There is a 100 watt/2x12 combo version, that weighs 63 pounds (weight according to Rivera). The weight of the current Fender Twin Reverb amps is 64 pounds. The Blackface Twin Reverbs (1963-1967) and Silverface Twin Reverbs (1968-1982) weighed 69 pounds, according to ampwares.

Maybe one of the toaster techs can provide further insight. One thing about these Riveras - they are significantly better built than any current Fender factory amps.


Take your pick:

[jzucker]

I've always wanted to try one of those in detail. A buddy of mine had a high end Rivera and an R55 which was one of their cheaper models. Once, I went over to his house and tried them out and thought they sounded amazing but the only guitars he had were Strats and Teles with .009s so I'm not sure I really learned a lot...

I haven't A/B'd it with any Fender amps, but I suspect that Channel 2 of this (and a few other similar Rivera combos) provides a wide range of excellent Fender tones (and Marshall tones from Channel 1, for that matter) given Paul Rivera's extremely intimate familiarity with Fender. This Fandango is 55watt/1x12", smaller and lighter than a Twin at 53 pounds (according to Rivera). It's one hell of a nice combo amp.

The 55 watt version is also be available as a 212" combo, as well as head -only versions. The 100 watt/2x12 combo comes in at 63 pounds (according to Rivera). Maybe one of the toaster techs can provide further insight.

[John A.]

I never thought my brown Pro sounded anything like my TR but the Pro was the 6G5 I think, black face was different. The speakers make it hard to compare (as many have pointed out).

I had an early brown pro for many years. Agreed, it sounded different from a Twin.

John

[yebdox]

I agree that there is something about a 2x12 cab that seems to really open up the dimensions of the tone of the amp. I have a Twin that started life as a '73 Dual Showman head, blackfaced by Rick Hayes of Vintage Sound. It's absolutely wonderful with archtops in particular, in a way that playing the same head through another 2 x10 or 1x12 cab is not, and vice versa ( I have a 40 watt Allen Old Flame that sounds twice as nice when played through the Twin's cab, vs a 1x12, as does my Vintage Sound 35.)

What I wonder is why more folks don't go for a head and cab combo, which makes lifting and carrying much easier. I'm not sure if I will buy another combo, but am thinking about a spare 2x12 cab to go with my Allen, as well as considering some other heads in the 40 to 100 watt range. I'm not sure of the physics, but the extra speaker just adds something special.

[Greentone]

Right on. A Showman into a Fender 2 x 12 cabinet is superb and comparatively portable.

I had a blackface Showman head for about five years a decade ago. GREAT amp.

[patshep]

Right on. A Showman into a Fender 2 x 12 cabinet is superb and comparatively portable.

I had a blackface Showman head for about five years a decade ago. GREAT amp.

OMG there have been a ton of showman heads available cheaply lately here... way too much power for me at home, but i swear i want one anyway...

[Greentone]

After the silverface TR was gone, I got the Showman. It satisfied my lust for Fender clean tones.

[stevo58]

It’s been mentioned once or twice, but I’ll do it again. Although the BF/SF Fenders are very similar, nearly identical circuits, there are some important differences between the Twin and its derivatives and the Super one the one hand and the other 6L6 amps.

First, as has been mentioned, the output transformers are very large and heavy. This means that it is very difficult to saturate them, keeping it clean.

Second, they have very much higher voltage on the anodes of the preamp tubes. This makes it difficult to drive them into cutoff or saturation - again, translating into clean.

The Twin’s diode rectification is less significant compared to a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier thana 5U4 - a GZ34 is very stiff, and also causes a much lower voltage drop. It also requires 1A less 5V than a 5U4, placing less strain on the PT.

If I were to build a strictly clean Fender, I’d go for a single channel, 2-6L6 amp, with diode rectification, Deville voltages on the 6L6s (about 485V), SF phase inverter values, >250V on the pres, a Twin OT, and a horribly overdimensioned PT. If Reverb, with a dwell control; if Trem, the Vibrochamp trem. If I could figure out a good way to do it I would switch between a standard FMV tone stack and a James; I built a Twin head (a Showman, so to speak) with a James stack in the ‘normal’ channel and it is like two different amps.

Just my 2 euro-cents worth.

Steven

[jorgemg1984]

Steven, I agree with you (well, what I understand). I would keep the two channels, one blackface, the other James - and would put reverb on both. And on the blackface, I would change the mid pot so I could choose between scooped and fatter sounding.

[Jimmy Mack]

I've had 3 Twins. Nice , yes, but not my favorite tones. Speakers do matter.

I played my Blackface Twin with a Bassman cab so I had 4 12's for medium volume gigs. I shoulda had a Super Reverb. I think they sound better. 2 SF Twins, one with JBL's, ouch! One with Fender speakers, not bad, but boring. I don't miss any of them.

I now own and love: 1) a Princeton Reverb with better transformers thanks to Andy Fuchs and an Eminence Legend speaker - One of my favorite sounding amps, and loud enough for gigging with a drummer
2) a 1983 Fender Princeton Reverb II, 22 watts and delicious. Too loud! but with that Princeton/Deluxe tone - 12 inch speaker for a bigger sound
3) a 1984 Fender Concert II with 2 10's. 60 watts with 2 6L6's and huge transformers. It' a small Twin, or a larger Vibrolux Reverb!

To get great reverb in a Fender, buy yourself a 3 spring pan ($20+). What a diff.! Lush and serene. I have it in a Princeton R.

You don't need a Twin. You could find better tone.

Explore, and enjoy the hunt!

[icr]

I laugh at you puny earthlings with your puny Twin Reverbs.

Yes!!

[icr]

I always considered this little Mesa Blue Angel with 2x10 cabinet a "little Twin"

[stevo58]

I laugh at you puny earthlings with your puny Twin Reverbs.

Don’t make me laugh.

(No I don’t really have one of these).