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Ah. Okay, I am familiar with the recordings he did with the 175. Very different sound. He sure found his holy grail in that Zeidler!
Originally Posted by christianm77
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12-24-2018 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Hmm. Seems like that only works if you're playing open strings or at the 12th fret. If you're playing at the 7th fret, for example, that node has moved towards the bridge. I don't think the nodal explanation adequately covers the issue, but I don't have a good explanation to offer in its place.
Johnny Smith preferred a 19 or 20 fret neck with the pickup at the end of the neck, so at probably the virtual 22nd fret or so, because he thought the tone was warmest and fattest there. The ES-175 puts the pickup at about the virtual 24th fret, but with a 19 or 20 fret neck so you can see a large gap between the end of the fretboard and the pickup. However, the laminate construction blunts the high frequency response of the guitar.
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I think this is a question for the builders on the forum? Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Yes - I wasn't talking about nodes - but the simple fact that you are placing the PU further from the Bridge for less treble and more lows.
Technically the nodes change location every time you fret a note.
Most builders are just building from tradition in some respects .
Semi- Hollows are often the same thickness as 335 because it is considered a 'Benchmark ' -for me it is a questionmark..lol
Listen to the El Reys at 2.0 inches with the tiny block ...or the 2.25" deep small block stoptail Jazz Elite Semi Hollow and you start hearing something 'new'.
The top might not be vibrating like an Archtop, but it's still warmer and fatter and more complex and more sustain.....
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I wonder if you will not need to roll down the tone control as much if that Neck PU location is moved further from the Bridge.
At 20th location with 19 fret Fingerboard and you might have an actual Jazz Tele especially with a Mahogany or Blackwood Body..
The 'Jazz ' sweet spot on a Tele would/might be different from the 'Jazz ' sweet spot on a 335 .
Hopefully people will build more 2.25" deep semihollow tiny block Guitars.
Has any Builder even tested this?
I imagine a lot of thinner Guitars lacking low resonance would benefit from this..Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-25-2018 at 03:18 AM.
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Forgive me if this is annoyingly obvious or already beaten to death, but we all like to make a point in our own words. To me, “tone is in the hands” means:
1. A great player can sound great on virtually any gear.
2. Anyone who has developed a signature style/sound, with the exception of those that are highly dependent on electronics, can sound similar on a wide variety of gear.
3. Technique has a huge impact on tone.
I have a wonderful collection of archtops and amps, all of which I love, but in truth it’s all a distraction. I bet if I was a MUCH better and more disciplined player I wouldn’t care about all of the gear nearly as much. Bill Evans talked about digging deeply into a small amount of material. I wish I had the discipline to dig deeply into a small amount of gear.
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Excuse me for saying this, but I am wondering why you keep repeating your point again and again in nearly every tread you respond to. I agree with you the El Reys are great guitars, definitely for their price, though I doubt that this is only due to the points you are raising. Did you try the guitars that you are mentioning in your different replies yourself next to each other, or is your view mainly based on videos? As you know that can make a huge difference. And did you check your opinion with major luthiers and, if you are right, have them build your dream guitar? I assume these people are not stupid and not all traditionalists. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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I fully agree with you, except for the distraction. To me a great guitar is a balance between the characteristics of the guitar and the player. It is about the symbiosis. No doubt, any great guitar player can get a great tone out of any decent guitar. It doesn't mean it is the guitar they would prefer to play or hear (I know, not exactly JZ's point). One of my guitars was far more expensive than I would need or deserve as a player. But that guitar is the one I enjoy and play most because it just feels 'right'. Originally Posted by Jabbarn
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Here’s a good clip of Peter Bernstein using the L5.
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I think you have a good point here. Originally Posted by stevus
Excuse me for saying this, but I am wondering why you keep repeating your point again and again in nearly every tread you respond to. I agree with you the El Reys are great guitars, definitely for their price, though I doubt that this is only due to the points you are raising. Did you try the guitars that you are mentioning in your different replies yourself next to each other, or is your view mainly based on videos? As you know that can make a huge difference. And did you check your opinion with major luthiers and, if you are right, have them build your dream guitar? I assume these people are not stupid and not all traditionalists.
Could this be why people got really annoyed when I brought it up 8 times on the Jeep Wrangler Forum and the Cake Decorators Forum ?
Or was it 7 times ?
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Any pickup will sound warmer the closer it is to the middle of the sounding length of the string, due to the greater excursion of the string's vibration.
Tone is a matter of touch and gear -- the interaction of the two.
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The last sentence really sums it up better than I did in 90 sentences and explains why Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
Master Guitarists like Bernstein or Silberstein still sound quite different on different Guitars.
Some of you really should approach Yotam Silberstein on a Gig during a break and tell him that -
' Tone is in the fingers - and you really should be able to get the same Tones from the Comins that you are now getting from the Benedetto '.
Try it with Bernstein too - lol.
Jack Z-(don't know him personally ) is one of the very rare Players who does know more about the Guitars than the people who build them (in many ways)Sadowsky thanked him for suggesting a specific model DiMarzio PAF Sadowsky's Semi)
-I don't have anywhere near that knowledge or experience- just having some fun drawing the line.Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-25-2018 at 01:40 PM.
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Although Bernstein still sounds great on the L5, it produces a very different sound from his Zeidler. The L5 is brighter and snappier(?) than the Zeidler. Devotees of the L5 may wonder why he moved from such an iconic instrument to one made by a relatively unknown luthier. But he did not stay with the L5 for long. Its history and reputation were not enough for him to keep trying, futilely, to get the tone he was hearing in his head. Then he found the Zeidler, which he’s been playing for more than 20 years. Some players just simply don’t want higher frequencies that can’t be dialed out. That happened with me and a Benedetto. I loved everything about it except it’s tone—bright! And it would turn to mud when lowering the level of the tone knob to 1 or 0. Everything above 1 had that Benedetto brightness, which is a common characteristic of most Benedettos. Some people hate dark tones, preferring only bright. One man’s floor is another man’s ceiling. I love Bernstein’s tone on the Zeidler, but that doesn’t mean everyone else has to. It’s simply a preference that requires finding the right tools to make it happen.
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Merry Christmas to you El Fundo! Originally Posted by El Fundo
I hope to get out and hear you play soon
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Hey Todd!
Merry Christmas to you as well, my friend! My trio is playing tomorrow night at Legacy Hall in their Box Garden. If you’re not familiar with that venue, then check it out. It’s probably the best music venue in town now. And the owner, manager, soundman, etc. are extremely cool and actually love jazz! If you come out I’ll introduce you to them so you can book yourself there. Hope to see you soon.
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Imagine being a pianist. That’s the ultimate tone being in the fingers .
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Yeh I can't remember pianists ask: what piano did Bill Evans play on this record? Originally Posted by christianm77
Or imagine a violiist coming to the shop: I love Menuhin's tone.. I want the same Gvarneri ... and by the way what string gauges did he have?
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Actually, I have a different experience - all pianists I know discuss which pianos they like the best, they even "fight" for getting a certain room at a music school because of the piano... well, and don't even bring the Nord keyboard subject around them
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Imagine if all jazz clubs had a ‘house guitar’ that you had to use, instead of bringing your own...
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Yes... old laminated classical guiatr with steel strings instead nylons - bent neck - that you have to play through the mic.. and you it is already tuned and tuners are locked! Originally Posted by grahambop
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Steinway model B
It is well known among pianists TBF
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Oh god don’t Originally Posted by grahambop
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Piano players have distinctive tones too. Yes, there is much more of a mechanical process involved in order to produce a sound, while the guitar is a far more crude and primitive an instrument. So, an untrained child can push a piano key down and it will sound much better than the same child fretting a note on a guitar and plucking the same string (if he even strikes the same string he’s fretting!).
Pianos are very responsive to touch and dynamics, which is why the original name for it is the “piano-forte”, since before it’s invention, keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord had plucking mechanisms and did not respond to touch, having only one dynamic level.
Listen to how different McCoy Tyner’s sound is from Wynton Kelly’s. And I’m sure both of these guys recorded in the same studios, each which only had one piano that everyone played on! Listen to Keith Jarrett. If you were to have a conversation with Jarrett about this topic you would most likely get a very lengthy dissertation on the importance of a piano player’s touch and tone. And you will never see Keith playing a Nord. Great piano players are very picky about pianos and also very adamant about hands and technique to get a great tone. And I would venture to guess that none of them have huge collections of 9’ grand pianos sitting in their homes.Last edited by El Fundo; 12-27-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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The piano is not a good analogy (the violin is). On the guitar, every aspect of the tone has to be generated and controlled by the player interacting with the instrument. You have little choice of string composition or gauge on a piano, you do on guitar, and you can change it up in minutes. You generally have no choice on scale lengths on piano, you just accept whatever the piano in front of you has. On guitar that choice is more readily made. Piano's are such large and cumbersome items you rarely get choices of the nature of the resonant chamber, but on guitar you can have several choices right at the gig. Piano does not require the same touch issues. If you choose the right key, you won't get a buzz, click, thump, dead note, etc. You can't bend or slur. Fingerstyle, flesh, nails, thumb'finger picks, plectrum, chickin-pickin, alternate picking economy picking... pianists never have to make those kinds of choices. Fingerings and positions as well. Originally Posted by Jonah
Guitars offer these choices and challenges, and that is what players and listeners like about them. We interact much more fully with the physicality of the instrument itself than a piano player can. And because we have those choices, their use becomes a criterion for being "good" on the instrument.
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I think most good players picking up an unfamiliar and perhaps less than ideal instrument will quickly scope out the characteristics of that instrument and adapt their playing to bring out the best in it. It’s not just in the hands but also in the mind (or more poetically in the heart). Yeah, the action might be a bit high, it might have some odd resonance, the strings might be funky, but there’s probably some sweet spot where it can be made to sound pretty, at least for a few minutes.
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The great Russian classical pianist Sokolov (according to many the best in the world) has his own piano with him wherever he travels. Otherwise he won't play. I am not sure, but I think Glenn Gould had a similar thing with his Steinway.
Violinists even argue about their bow.
Small's in NY has a great house guitar. It's an Archtop Tribute. So no need to worry if you have forgotten yours.
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Has anyone tried the JHS Clover preamp pedal?
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