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Hi,
I’m playing a Tal Farlow through a Deluxe Reverb. For 95% of my repertoire I’m using a clean sound which I’m happy with. Occasionally I’m using a RAT clone for distortion - also happy with the sound. But very unhappy with how it reacts to the volume knob of my guitar :-) I’m pretty sure this is the case for whatever distortion pedal/guitar/amp but since I’m a jazz guitarist, I’m no expert in overdrives :-)
With the RAT on the only thing affected by the volume knob of my guitar seems to be the “drive” of the effect. It doesn’t get louder, just more distorted. This is cool, but I’m never right with the volume even with trying hard during sound check. It’s always too loud (feedback problems) or too quiet (turning the pedal on decreases the overall volume). Never right. So I have to get to the effect and adjust the level by hand. Super stupid.
How do you deal with this? Volume pedal as last thing in the pedal board? Or am I missing something?
Thanks!
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11-20-2018 07:32 PM
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Yes, use a volume control after the fuzz. A passive pedal like the Ernie Ball JR will be fine.
If you ALWAYS will use the passive volume pedal after effects and NEVER with the high impedance guitar plugged directly into the pedal, then the 25K pedal will be fine. Otherwise get the 250K.
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Volume pedal as the last (or semi last, I usually put a reverb pedal on the other side) pedal in the chain. A change in pickup output (the guitar volume knob) will change how everything down the line reacts. Sometimes that can be exploited to positive effect, but if you want a consistent reaction from a given pedal you have to hit it with a consistent signal. Jerry Garcia had his hippie Frankenstein guitars wired up with an on board stereo effects loop to deal with this challenge, but a VP towards the end of the chain will get you most of the way there....
PK
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My signal chain is:
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
guitar
delay
Reverb
RAT clone
Ehx freeze
I guess I should consider going to something like:
Guitar
RAT (rarely)
Volume pedal
Delay
Reverb
Freeze?
I won’t use the pedal without going through the RAT but I will be using it frequently with the RAT off. Still the 25k version?
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Some ideas from Strymon.
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you've got two separate issues going on here...1st the rat!!..that's too high gain a distortion pedal for an archtop!!...you want a boost or an overdrive...not a high gain distorto pedal
also you want the distortion/overdrive before the delay and reverb!!!..otherwise you are distorting your delay and reverb....into sludge!
get a new overdrive/boost pedal and put it first...the delay then reverb..then freeze
luck
cheers
ps- don't know your budget but check out tavo @ nocturne
Pedals – The Nocturne Brain
he specifically builds overdrives that pair with hollowbody guitars....his octal sounding jr barnyard boost has a big favorable thread going on here on the forum...New preamp day - Nocturne Jr. Barnyard
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I would need to know if the signal is still buffered through the Rat even when the effect is switched off. Originally Posted by jzjazz
If there is mechanical bypass switching then you will want the high impedance (250K) passive pedal.
If there is electronic switching but the signal remained buffered (to low impedance) inside the pedal, then 25K is fine for the passive pedal.
To test this in the caveman (ugh-urbphurg!!...) style, play with the Rat switched off then disconnect power from the Rat. If you hear no difference in sound with the power to the Rat disconnected (and the Rat switched “off”) then the signal is the “high impedance” guitar signal for the practical purposes of choosing an impedance for a passive volume pedal. If disconnecting power to the Rat kills the signal when the effect is switched off, it is most likely (though I suppose not absolutely certain) that the signal is buffered and you can use a low impedance (25K) passive volume pedal.
A look at the Rat schematic will also answer this question.
So would a test using either the volume pedals or just a 250K and a 25K pot.
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NOTE: The downside of the 25K pot with a high impedance signal will be some loss of volume and a very notable loss in the high end.
And another NOTE: The downside of the 250K pot with a low impedance signal would be an arguably sub-optimal response curve as you use the pedal. In practice I have found the 250K pedal to be just fine with a low impedance input. Yes the response curve is different, but adjusting takes almost no time and effort, in my opinion.
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You could also go to an active volume pedal, but i think the Ernie Ball passive pedals are real battle-axe beasts that can take serious use for years. I like them for this reason.
Long response. Hope it helps some.
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As for the exact effect pedals you choose, man I have seen far more seemingly unlikely combinations work just great. I’d use what you like regardless of intent or pedigree of the design or design-er.
But the principle will be the same, you will want to control volume after the drive effect.
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My freeze is first. Then 2 delay/loop/echo pedals (they can be either/or depending on the song/ mood. After those 3 I go into my volume (Dunlap). I play on the edge semi-hair through my pod so I have no reason for a dirt pedal, but the rat can be very low gain and smooth if you need it to.
formulas will make you sound formulaic- go with what you think sounds good.
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Not true Originally Posted by neatomic
I did some testing before getting the rat and found it most versatile. Tube screamer and OCD were just fine, but with the RAT I can get a TS sound easily, with the TS hardly a RAT-sound The feedback with high distortion isn't a big deal somehow.
True! Noticed this problem yesterday while analyzing my signal chain. Though it doesn't solve the problem - the volume knob still wouldn't change the distorted guitar volume much. Originally Posted by neatomic
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Great stuff, thanks! Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
I guess I'll go by the strymon guideline and do something like:
guitar --> freeze --> rat --> delay/reverb --> Volume pedal
And since I'm always using one of the delay/reverb pedals, the 25k version will be fed with the right impedance.
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Sounds good. Originally Posted by jzjazz
Thinking about the Rat, it would overwhelmingly likely be a mechanical bypass switch per the original design of the pedal - and thus high impedance output when switched off. But when anyone says “clone” it is always possible that the clone could have the basic RAT design (op amp with clipping diodes to ground) but also include an active buffer that is always “on”.
In your case it will not matter since the volume pedal will always see an active, buffered, low impedance signal.
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Volume pedal in the FX loop also works, if your amp has one
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well it may be the "most versatile"(it's not) but if you can't get a simple 3 knob distortion pedal to maintain unity gain then adding a volume pedal is gonna complicate matters one hundredfold!!! Originally Posted by jzjazz
Not true I did some testing before getting the rat and found it most versatile. Tube screamer and OCD were just fine, but with the RAT I can get a TS sound easily, with the TS hardly a RAT-sound The feedback with high distortion isn't a big deal somehow.
if your guitar and pedal don't interface, one of thems gotta go!!
there are distortion units that are specifically made to interact with guitars knobs effectively..why i recommended taking a look at nocturne pedals & the barnyard thread
cheers
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jzjazz you said that when you turn up the guitar only the distortion gets boosted and no volume increase. I would be asking the maker of that pedal what is wrong with it. because it should allow the volume to increase and not the effect. Some distortion pedals need to have the volume up more than others to push a distortion,Fuzz,Gain signal thru it But I have never hear of one that wont let the Guitars vol work for loudness
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Thanks neatomic! Originally Posted by neatomic
Again I can’t agree :-) I spoke to some of my friends who play other genres and there are two types of how they deal with distortion - either with a VP or they use more than one pedal with different sounds. But I often heard “yeah it’s a pain in the ass to get the volume right”.
No idea where you got the impression from that my guitar doesn’t fit the rat pedal. It can be a light overdrive with the right settings and I’m happy with the sound. No idea how another pedal could beat that. Sco seems pretty happy with his and he doesn’t play heavy metal :-)
Edit: one more thing - I found an old super bad proel volume pedal somewhere and added it to my board. It solved all problems during today’s rehearsal. Ok 90% - since it’s old and cheap it isn’t very precise. But it proved my point perfectly, at least for me it did.
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Ok maybe this wasn’t clear enough. It does alter the volume but not enough. And I believe this is pretty normal - that’s why you have the volume knob on the pedal. The more you give to the pedal, the more distorted the output will be, the level being another thing since a more distorted sound will not always get better through in the mix. Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
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Btw. any recommendations for a smaller pedal then the Ernie ball? EB is 26cm long and doesn’t fit my pedal board. My temporary proel is 20cm long and is perfect in size, maybe a little smaller would be even better.
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dunlop and dod both have mini vol pedals
cheers
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What kind of sounds are you trying to achieve? Have you experimented at all with overdrives instead of distortion? Don't even want to think of the problems a combination of an archtop and distortion would present in a live setting
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But yeah, usually it is a booster or volume pedal after the distortion that solves the problem. Overdrives can be more versatile though and can work without something extra. A very responsive distortion could work too. i use a blackstone overdrive or a lovepedal eternity or a zendrive for jazz (all overdrives but can do distortion with humbuckers). Never tried my rat with an archtop however!
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Sounds absolutely normal to me too. Originally Posted by jzjazz
This seems like a funny thread. The OP describes a sound he likes and an experience with distortion effects that is 100% consistent with the circuit design, and with normal experience.
Then people tell him that he can not possibly like his own sound, and that through some inexplicable magic some other pedal will give him volume control of the effect output from the guitar volume.
(You can absolutely get a post distortion volume control from the guitar’s volume control - but putting in an on-board distortion. But that is a different discussion.)
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Thanks. I was beginning to think that I’m crazy :-) Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
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I said before, but if you like the full volume sound of the overdrive into the amp - fx loop the volume pedal!
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And sure, if one feels that the pre-amp sound is a major component in the total overdrive, then a volume control after the pre-amp (or some of the pre-amp anyway) is a fine idea. The FX loop will be farther down the signal line than a pedal before the amp input but after the overdrive pedal. Originally Posted by Marwin Moody
One would have to look at each amp to see where the FX loop sits vs. any on-board overdrive effects.
Some may feel that the pre-amp does not contribute to their basic overdriven sound.
OR they may like the effect of a volume control after the overdrive pedal, but before some minor overdrive component in the amp.
Of course some feel that the power amp is also a major part of their overdrive sound - thus the Tom Scholz (sp?) “Power Soak” array of power resistors after the power amp and before the speaker. Does this mean that a volume pedal in the FX loop is certainly a sub-optimal mistake?
But wait,... others feel that the speaker is a huge part of their overdriven sound - so then we need a pedal connected to variable ear-muffs for the audience members. The cabling could get complex, but surely that would be superior to the solution of a “Power Soak”.
We might each do well to pick the volume control location that works for our particular sound and is within the technology we each choose to consider practical.
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why is it inexplicable that certain boost/dist/od pedals react better with your guitar volume knobs than others??...it's a very common criteria for judging pedals these days!!!....once you step away from 80's fuzz tech...that was made to go with pointy guitars, high gain 15K+ ceramic magnet pickups and floyd rose trems...(so with the minimum of technique you can hit a note, bend your whammy and sustain for 30 seconds...) Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
almost everyone in the jr barnyard thread that i linked to ^ commented on just that feature...the way the pedal responds to the guitar volume knob changes
so when op writes-But very unhappy with how it reacts to the volume knob of my guitar :-) I’m pretty sure this is the case for whatever distortion pedal/guitar/amp but since I’m a jazz guitarist, I’m no expert in overdrives :-)
he is incorrect!!
and rat aside, at least op sorted out his pedal order and got headsup for mini volume pedals...so the threads not a total loss after all
lastly fuzzes have been in use since the early 60's...millions sold...records recorded, live shows done...the average guitar player was not using a volume pedal with it!!!...
cheers
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