1950s D’Angelico for around $20,000

[rpguitar]

Easy, fella...

My experience with Lark Street is that most of the vintage guitars there need something, maybe small, maybe large, to be right. A good cleaning, a setup, exposure to proper humidity, new frets, fingerboard planing, etc. - not necessarily a show stopper, but they often don't show that well on first blush. I live 20 minutes from the place and go there reasonably often, so this is not an idle observation.

[sgcim]

Easy, fella...

My experience with Lark Street is that most of the vintage guitars there need something, maybe small, maybe large, to be right. A good cleaning, a setup, exposure to proper humidity, new frets, fingerboard planing, etc. - not necessarily a show stopper, but they often don't show that well on first blush. I live 20 minutes from the place and go there reasonably often, so this is not an idle observation.

You got Roger Borys in Hoboken, who only does repair work on good guitars these days, because he's so busy building. His rates are so low, I feel like I'm robbing him every time he does work on my D'A or two Borys guitars. If I don't give him a tip, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Sometimes he just has me buy him lunch!
If you want to go big bucks, and get something more cosmetic done, you can go to KM, but it ain't cheap.

[deacon Mark]

Joe,
I am going to preach a bit but I won't touch on the gospels. I will let the Rev. Lawson do that he is the scholar.

First of all Johnny Smith did not like truss rods all the much he thought at times they rattled around. His D'angelico NY did not have a truss rod it was the made using the rolled steel bar he used in the past. Smith was a great guitar repairman himself and knew the guitar inside and out. I played his D'angelico NY'er at his shop many years ago maybe you know the story.

The issue of cracks in the neck really depend because a simple peghead crack or even a huge in the a pro's hands can be put back so that there is no structural issue. An in person inspection can usually figure out this right away. Remember the rules.

Rule 1. Glue is strong that the wood
Rule 2. Guitars all have intentional cracks in them when built. The top and back are glue together with a very long intentional crack the two halves are joined. Necks are glue in 2,3, 4 and sometimes 5 pieces together then necks are glued to the body.
Rule 3. Refinishing a guitar done in Nitro by a pro will not change the sound and sometimes improved it. As the guitar settles in after the refinish it goes to it's normal "set point.'

Bill Barker refinished a number of D'angelico's and we confirmed no change is sound. In fact Freddy Rundquist had Barker refinish his 17 inch D"angelico NY made to Johnny Smith's specs. The guitar did not change in sound and in fact I thought over the years it opened up. I know because I was the person who scraped the old finish off the body and a number of years later visiting Freddy played the guitar and it was great. In fact what I remember was just how much power this little New Yorker produced. It was warm and wide open.

Rule 4. Finishes are not just for looks they protect the wood. Damage the wood and you have a bigger problem.


Purist and Collectors will have issues with much that I say but I am a player first. No, we do not want to add bigsby's and do things crazy on vintage guitar but they need attention at times and should get it. Players even get bent out of shape on cracks and the like but really a good going over and you can see what is happening. The guitar sound comes from the carving pattern and the bracing and how it is put together. The "soul" of an acoustic archtop is how the maker graduated the top and carved it to produce the sound. Hollenbeck told me that the majority of his time spent making the guitar was craving the top and getting all those micro measurements done on the thickness at various points.

Joe...…...get your tail end down to Lark Street and buy this D'a because after all money is replaceable you just make more if you spend it right?

[QAman]

I spoke with Tom at Lark Street today about some other business and happened to ask about this guitar. The entire headstock was broken off this guitar. They repaired it, and had to add some ebony fill as well. So, its your typical devaluation for a headstock break.



Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[QAman]

Easy, fella...

My experience with Lark Street is that most of the vintage guitars there need something, maybe small, maybe large, to be right. A good cleaning, a setup, exposure to proper humidity, new frets, fingerboard planing, etc. - not necessarily a show stopper, but they often don't show that well on first blush. I live 20 minutes from the place and go there reasonably often, so this is not an idle observation.

Ive been there too - and with regards to the vintage stuff - you are 100% right on the money Roger.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[Stringswinger]

Easy, fella...

My experience with Lark Street is that most of the vintage guitars there need something, maybe small, maybe large, to be right. A good cleaning, a setup, exposure to proper humidity, new frets, fingerboard planing, etc. - not necessarily a show stopper, but they often don't show that well on first blush. I live 20 minutes from the place and go there reasonably often, so this is not an idle observation.

My experience with dealers in used goods (cars, guitars, guns etc.) is that they often sell stuff as it comes to them. Some inventory is consigned and they have little choice but to sell stuff as the consignor brings it (a few dealers will suggest repairs and will sometimes even make a tidy profit off of the consignor for doing the repair). If the goods are dealer owned, the dealer will do a cost benefit analysis as to whether the price increase they can get exceeds the cost of repair. Some dealers are simply lazy and leave money on the table by not doing anything, even if the repair would bring increased profit. And with vintage guitars, some buyers prefer that no repairs are made. They want it in all original condition or they want to make their own repairs, by their own repairmen.

My D'Angelico Style A was owned by Lark Street music. The guy that I bought it from traded a few guitars for it and then took it to Eddie Diehl (RIP) who performed some necessary repairs (fret job, new tuners, new nut, new bridge saddle and finish touchup). I am guessing that if Buzzy (Lark Street music owner) had that work done it would not have been as profitable to him. The restoration work is top notch and sure has been profitable to me!

[deacon Mark]

RP is the fellow. Just get him a bottle of Chimay and have go over the guitar with a fine tooth comb. He can give us report.....mandatory reporter!

[neatomic]

well thats just the nature of the present game...the finest stuff is all privately brokered...for a b &m store to get a hold of something means the seller was going for a quick/easier sale...and that often means the instrument may be in less than stellar shape


"ebony fill " points to just how serious break was...

if not this one, they'll be another....at 20k$, patience is a requirement


cheers

[Max405]

Easy, fella...

My experience with Lark Street is that most of the vintage guitars there need something, maybe small, maybe large, to be right. A good cleaning, a setup, exposure to proper humidity, new frets, fingerboard planing, etc. - not necessarily a show stopper, but they often don't show that well on first blush. I live 20 minutes from the place and go there reasonably often, so this is not an idle observation.

No worries. I’ve been there a bunch of times. Between GnJ and there, I don’t understand how a shop that stocks and sells such high end stuff can be such a shithole. I wouldn’t even play most of the guitar hanging on those walls. I am not into crud. Nope. Ain’t happening.

You got Roger Borys in Hoboken, who only does repair work on good guitars these days, because he's so busy building. His rates are so low, I feel like I'm robbing him every time he does work on my D'A or two Borys guitars. If I don't give him a tip, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Sometimes he just has me buy him lunch!
If you want to go big bucks, and get something more cosmetic done, you can go to KM, but it ain't cheap.

i will have to reach out to Roger when the time comes. That is great advice. Thanks SG.

I spoke with Tom at Lark Street today about some other business and happened to ask about this guitar. The entire headstock was broken off this guitar. They repaired it, and had to add some ebony fill as well. So, its your typical devaluation for a headstock break.

QA, thanks for doing that. I didn’t think it was going to be steal that’s for sure.

Ive been their too - and with regards to the vintage stuff - you are 100% right on the money Roger.

yeah we’ve talked about this before. In my opinion, I would feel like I’d have to rescue a guitar from that place.

[rpguitar]

I do like Chimay.

But seriously, I wasn't intending to rag on Lark Street specifically. It's a general observation for most shops, even the famous ones. Usually I go there because I simply must see something that just got listed on the website, only to be disappointed when it doesn't match my fantasy. This is actually a good thing, as it nearly always reinforces my appreciation for guitars I already own! I consider it a roundabout way of saving money.

I was just trying to toss a little cold water on the GAS. Not to drown it, just to cool it a little. This would be a very serious acquisition of major cost and commitment. I'm sure you'll take it slowly, if you do it at all - and it should not be a foregone conclusion that you will, just because a bunch of vicarious enablers worked you into a lather.

Go play the Johnny Smith.

[vinnyv1k]

Jimmy told me that he made all the D’A’s from 1960-64 with just very minor help from John because of his failing health. John basically just did some neck shaping and binding work. Jimmy did the rest. You can tell the difference. Jimmy’s sunbursts were more subtle on the 60’s D’A’s.

[Max405]

I do like Chimay.

But seriously, I wasn't intending to rag on Lark Street specifically. It's a general observation for most shops, even the famous ones. Usually I go there because I simply must see something that just got listed on the website, only to be disappointed when it doesn't match my fantasy. This is actually a good thing, as it nearly always reinforces my appreciation for guitars I already own! I consider it a roundabout way of saving money.

I was just trying to toss a little cold water on the GAS. Not to drown it, just to cool it a little. This would be a very serious acquisition of major cost and commitment. I'm sure you'll take it slowly, if you do it at all - and it should not be a foregone conclusion that you will, just because a bunch of vicarious enablers worked you into a lather.

Go play the Johnny Smith.

RP, Thanks for your concern. But I'm good. Trust me. I wont do anything that will hurt anybody.
My Johnny's just might be the best guitars I'll ever own. But who knows. Maybe there is a DA out there that will unlock a sound that I've only heard on recordings of a DA. Will it be worth the extra $20,000? Probably not. But the emotional attachment you get with a guitar cannot be quantified with a price tag. I love my Gibson Johnny Smith but it will never fill the emotional space that my HJS18 occupies, now and probably till I look down and cant figure out if that's a guitar on my lap or a dog.

I want to investigate the aura of the 1950's Cutaway D'Angelico. I want to experience the magic that my hero's enjoyed. If I do it right, it might be a winner - if I get to do it at all..

Thanks fella. And I will go play my Johnny's when our friends leave after the Giant game tonight..
Joe D

[vinnyv1k]

I don’t know $20K plus for a guitar it would never leave my house. I get nervous when I have my L5 on the back seat and I am being tailgated.
I know it’s not the real deal but for $20K Victor Baker makes a mighty fine replica that is most likely ever bit as good. He is a top notch builder.

I used to be a Headstock name snob. What a mistake that was. I should have had a Campellone 20 years ago.
I don’t want to be Mr.Coldwater but at least for me that kind of money and the fact the guitar is my age it would spend most of its life in the glass case on the wall. When I first got my DAQ I played it all the time. When Jimmy died and the value started to skyrocket I stopped playing it. It became a valuable piece of art not the tool it was intended for.
Extreme cost hinders usage. That is just human nature. I was going to stay out of this one but must side with Marco’s call. See if you can get Mikey’s blond HDA and do some gigs with it. Use the other $15K towards Joey’s college costs.
There is a fine line with a high end guitar turning from a tool to a idol. My .02

[Max405]

Joe,
I am going to preach a bit but I won't touch on the gospels. I will let the Rev. Lawson do that he is the scholar.

First of all Johnny Smith did not like truss rods all the much he thought at times they rattled around. His D'angelico NY did not have a truss rod it was the made using the rolled steel bar he used in the past. Smith was a great guitar repairman himself and knew the guitar inside and out. I played his D'angelico NY'er at his shop many years ago maybe you know the story.

The issue of cracks in the neck really depend because a simple peghead crack or even a huge in the a pro's hands can be put back so that there is no structural issue. An in person inspection can usually figure out this right away. Remember the rules.

Rule 1. Glue is strong that the wood
Rule 2. Guitars all have intentional cracks in them when built. The top and back are glue together with a very long intentional crack the two halves are joined. Necks are glue in 2,3, 4 and sometimes 5 pieces together then necks are glued to the body.
Rule 3. Refinishing a guitar done in Nitro by a pro will not change the sound and sometimes improved it. As the guitar settles in after the refinish it goes to it's normal "set point.'

Bill Barker refinished a number of D'angelico's and we confirmed no change is sound. In fact Freddy Rundquist had Barker refinish his 17 inch D"angelico NY made to Johnny Smith's specs. The guitar did not change in sound and in fact I thought over the years it opened up. I know because I was the person who scraped the old finish off the body and a number of years later visiting Freddy played the guitar and it was great. In fact what I remember was just how much power this little New Yorker produced. It was warm and wide open.

Rule 4. Finishes are not just for looks they protect the wood. Damage the wood and you have a bigger problem.


Purist and Collectors will have issues with much that I say but I am a player first. No, we do not want to add bigsby's and do things crazy on vintage guitar but they need attention at times and should get it. Players even get bent out of shape on cracks and the like but really a good going over and you can see what is happening. The guitar sound comes from the carving pattern and the bracing and how it is put together. The "soul" of an acoustic archtop is how the maker graduated the top and carved it to produce the sound. Hollenbeck told me that the majority of his time spent making the guitar was craving the top and getting all those micro measurements done on the thickness at various points.

Joe...…...get your tail end down to Lark Street and buy this D'a because after all money is replaceable you just make more if you spend it right?

Deacon Mark, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge with us.
I am personally interested in your story about playing Johnny's Guitar. I am glad that you gave him credit for being a good guitar tech. Many people only want to give him credit as a player. You are the 1st to give him respect as a man who really understands the science behind the instrument as well.
As for the money, if all goes well, I see myself being able to spend this kind of money in about 2 years. There are some things that have to break right but I am keeping myself optimistic..

Jimmy told me that he made all the D’A’s from 1960-64 with just very minor help from John because of his failing health. John basically just did some neck shaping and binding work. Jimmy did the rest. You can tell the difference. Jimmy’s sunbursts were more subtle on the 60’s D’A’s.

That is great info Vin.
Please forgive me for limiting my focus to vintage D'A's. I don't know why I am not considering one of Jimmy's masterpieces. I have no good valid reason for that. John's guitars are what I have in my mind right now, but that could change. No one knows better than you.. Things change constantly with me..
JD

[Max405]

I don’t know $20K plus for a guitar it would never leave my house. I get nervous when I have my L5 on the back seat and I am being tailgated.
I know it’s not the real deal but for $20K Victor Baker makes a mighty fine replica that is most likely ever bit as good. He is a top notch builder.

I used to be a Headstock name snob. What a mistake that was. I should have had a Campellone 20 years ago.
I don’t want to be Mr.Coldwater but at least for me that kind of money and the fact the guitar is my age it would spend most of its life in the glass case on the wall. When I first got my DAQ I played it all the time. When Jimmy died and the value started to skyrocket I stopped playing it. It became a valuable piece of art not the tool it was intended for.
Extreme cost hinders usage. That is just human nature. I was going to stay out of this one but must side with Marco’s call. See if you can get Mikey’s blond HDA and do some gigs with it. Use the other $15K towards Joey’s college costs.
There is a fine line with a high end guitar turning from a tool to a idol. My .02

Oh trust me.. Its gonna get played and then it will get wiped down to new and then placed in the glass case.
This in no way this guitar will ever be a beater. None of my stuff is. I have a $500 Strat that looks like it did the day it left the factory. You know, I take care of my stuff.
If I have a vintage DA, that was made the right way into a modern guitar, I would play it all the time without fear of it breaking. But it most likely would never leave the comfort of the big brown couch, just like all the others.
And I don't think this about being a headstock name snob ordeal. We are talking about a real D'Angelico here. As far as I am concerned they are in a league of there own. Whether that's real or perceived, that's what I would like to discover..

JD

[Rob MacKillop]

There's only one way to find out, Joe...

[vinnyv1k]

The great D’A’s just will never be in our price range. John and Jimmy built some turds too. Just the nature of wood.
A bargain D’A with new bindings, fretboard, refinish, headstock repair, neck rest, etc.... is no longer 100% D’A.
You are forgetting I know you. You don’t like checking, dents, dna stains, cracked and shrunk bindings.
What you want is $50K not $20K. I sold my mint DAQNY for $40K and was well below market value. Gryphon told me they could probably get $55K for it but I wasn’t about to have it hanging in a store with a 20% commission.
Dreams are great. I hope yours come true. LOL bro !!!

[Stringswinger]

Vinny, we have a hunters instinct hard wired into our DNA. JD is clamoring to do another hunt. Who are we to advise against it?

For me and you, extreme cost brings anxiety. For JD, once the hunt is complete, the cost may be forgotten. And if he gets to enjoy his "kill" it is all good. Better a DA on the wall than a game animal, eh?

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.....

[vinnyv1k]

Happy hunting ! Hope you bag that white elephant my man. LOL.

[wintermoon]

I say go for it.
Life is too short, 25 yrs ago when I finally found a truly great New Yorker, I sold almost all my guitars to finance it.
Then over the years I began building a collection again.

There's no reason to be nervous about playing it, I mean what's a new car cost these days? (I have no idea as my Toyota Camry is approaching 20 yrs old).
Point being, you're not gonna leave it in the garage covered and never drive it. It's a tool, use it as intended.
The cool thing about them is they're playable works of art that can satisfy on several levels.

Like SS said, DA's and DAQ's are among the finest archtops ever made (I'd put Elmer Stromberg up there w them as well)

Again, life's short, save your money, be patient and take your time to find a really great one and cross it off your bucket list. They're all they're cracked up to be.
I'd rather have a couple superlative guitars than 20 good ones. But ymmv....

[Max405]

There's only one way to find out, Joe...

Yeah you are right. We will see Robster!

The great D’A’s just will never be in our price range. John and Jimmy built some turds too. Just the nature of wood.
A bargain D’A with new bindings, fretboard, refinish, headstock repair, neck rest, etc.... is no longer 100% D’A.
You are forgetting I know you. You don’t like checking, dents, dna stains, cracked and shrunk bindings.
What you want is $50K not $20K. I sold my mint DAQNY for $40K and was well below market value. Gryphon told me they could probably get $55K for it but I wasn’t about to have it hanging in a store with a 20% commission.
Dreams are great. I hope yours come true. LOL bro !!!

Check your home PM, you kill-joy you..

Vinny, we have a hunters instinct hard wired into our DNA. JD is clamoring to do another hunt. Who are we to advise against it?
For me and you, extreme cost brings anxiety. For JD, once the hunt is complete, the cost may be forgotten. And if he gets to enjoy his "kill" it is all good. Better a DA on the wall than a game animal, eh?
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.....

SS,
If this actually happens, It will mean I buy Wintermoons 22 year old Camry (in 2 years) and that's what I drive for another 10 years. (which probably could happen..). A steady diet of rice and beans and Rice a Roni (you know that stuff they make in San Francisco) and my salad will be the stuff that grows in between the slate on the sidewalk. But I'm gonna be one happy guitar playin, farting my ass off 110lb version of myself.
Yeah baby!

I say go for it.
Life is too short, 25 yrs ago when I finally found a truly great New Yorker, I sold almost all my guitars to finance it.
Then over the years I began building a collection again.

There's no reason to be nervous about playing it, I mean what's a new car cost these days? (I have no idea as my Toyota Camry is approaching 20 yrs old).
Point being, you're not gonna leave it in the garage covered and never drive it. It's a tool, use it as intended.
The cool thing about them is they're playable works of art that can satisfy on several levels.

Like SS said, DA's and DAQ's are among the finest archtops ever made (I'd put Elmer Stromberg up there w them as well)

Again, life's short, save your money, be patient and take your time to find a really great one and cross it off your bucket list. They're all they're cracked up to be.
I'd rather have a couple superlative guitars than 20 good ones. But ymmv....

Keep changing the oil in my Camry WM!
I totally agree which is why my hair-brain idea isn't so far-fetched..

The way I look at it, if I spend a total of $25,000 on this D'Angelico, it will be worth a lot more than that in 30 years. This will be the ad..
90 year old absolutely Mint "REAL" 1958 D'Angelico Excel, with the much sought after Cutaway, which allows improved upper fret access when compared to the non cutaway models. No Checks, cracks or imperfections. When I purchased this guitar from the shop who bought it from the original owner, it was completely Original. The unfortunate headstock break was perfectly repaired using glue that is stronger than the wood itself and has been undetectable for 35 years. It was lovingly refinished by one of the most revered D'Angelico restoration specialists of our time using modern bindings and non outgassing pickguard material and it is still in absolute mint condition.

Now seriously, what do you think it would be worth then? It doesn't sound so ridiculous now doesn't it??

[Jim Soloway]

I think what you want can be done but only if it has some serious mods. Many years ago Ron Eschete was trying to sell his DA at a store he aught at in Long Beach Ca. It had two major mods: an added Florentine cutaway and a significant inlay on the peghead. He had a terrible time finding a buyer even at a discounted price. With those mods, collectors just weren't interested.

[wintermoon]

Unfortunately Joe the market hasn't changed much in the 25 yrs I've had mine.
In fact they were selling for more then than now.
My friend bought a 100% orig blonde cutaway NYer around then for 50k. He decided to sell a few yrs ago but still can't get his money back.
I'd be happy to get my $ back at this point.
The high end archtop market has a small number of folks participating and getting smaller by the year
Younger generation hasn't showed much interest, who knows what the future holds for high end archtops, but I'd never buy one as an investment @ this point.

[Max405]

Ok then, scratch the idea of re-sale.. (my argument is crumbling as we speak)
I've said it all along, my intention is not really to sell it. And if I do, and I lose 1/2 my money I'm not gonna cry about it. I've been bent over on every guitar I've ever owned anyway so why should that change now.
If it remains a family heirloom then so be it. My offspring will have a beautiful piece of art in a glass case that was once the most desirable guitar, back when people were lucky enough be able to appreciate the best the world has to offer.
Well, in any case I have a lot of time to decide.
Lawson, you like how I twisted this into a weight lose program huh? Yeah baby

[Max405]

I think what you want can be done but only if it has some serious mods. Many years ago Ron Eschete was trying to sell his DA at a store he aught at in Long Beach Ca. It had two major mods: an added Florentine cutaway and a significant inlay on the peghead. He had a terrible time finding a buyer even at a discounted price. With those mods, collectors just weren't interested.

Jim, I wouldn't be modifying or personalizing it (like Ron did) it at all.
Binding would be replaced with the same binding style that came on the guitar. Only with stuff that will last longer. Ok maybe adding a trussrod is a bit much, but everything else would remain just as the guitar was originally crafted. In fact, the pickguard that's on it now, would be removed and a proper one would replace it.
I am also warming up on the idea of keeping the DeArmond. A Johnny Smith Pickup might be too much of an out of period modification.
Thanks, JD