Sibilence: Montreal Premiere HardStop Tail

[Tommy_G]

Picked up a used Montreal Premiere recently. 2014 model if I am reading the SN correctly.

I got sucked in by these breathy open airy tones with a ton of vibe. I noodled around in the lower registers when I demoed it... and it sounded great in that room.. Amp was pointed at my ankles..

It was a very light soecimen.. Just over six pounds and at least tied with the most vibey one I have demoed.. The other having a bigsby, but was new in store at 2x the price and I do not need a bigsby. So I bought this one.

Got it home into my amp and room environment and the big Negative of this guitar shone through in spades.. A loud sibilent ring right in the same frequency range as preamp tubes when they go microphonic. A surefire way to get tinnitus... It is killing my ears!

Go above the 12th fret on the 3 plain strings and the ringing is intolerable.

You can hear it when played acoustically so it is not the pickups.. Which probably have a resonant peak about there too...

So, first things first.. The guitar came with a fresh set of D'Addario EXL110s..

What are the physics of this ringing and what can I do about it?

[mr. beaumont]

Does this model have an archtop style tailpiece, or a Les-Paul style "Stop-bar?"

EDIT: Duh, it says right in your post title.

So you can hear it acoustically and through the amp?

[Tommy_G]

It is Stopbar version. Yes.. Acoustically too.

The prior owner claimed to have the frets levelled.. Could it be a poor fret shape?

My other theory is vibrations along string length that unhappily coincides with the string length and stop lengths.

Wpuld a completely different string design fix this.. Or a different bridge.. Are the bridge saddles not doing their job? Physics?

[Jim Soloway]

Where are you hearing it from when you play unplugged?

[Tommy_G]

Mostly from the plain strings.. And 2nd and 3rd in particular.. Very notable above the 12th fret. And on a few frets where it is super bad there seems to be a slight fret buzz component to it as well.

The setup is otherwise fairly low.. Although gets into bad territory at the 18th to 22nd fret with too much distance above fretboard.

The sibilence is most dominant on the initial string attack but it does persist.

I would say the overtones are 80 percent coming from the guitar resonating and 20 from the string itself..

As indicated.. I am sure the pickups happen to reinforce this resonance.. And my musicman amp.. With its enhanced chimey high end response accentuates the sibilent ring even more.


Does this help?

[mr. beaumont]

For kicks, have you tried stuffing a piece of sponge or fabric under the strings between the bridge and tailpiece?

I know that's a small space, but on a floating tailpiece type guitar that area can be the cause of all sorts of pings and things...I wonder if you're getting it here on a very small scale...

[Doctor Jeff]

Looks like another reason to get a Bigsby...

JK...


I think you are on to something with this: "My other theory is vibrations along string length that unhappily coincides with the string length and stop lengths." There are a lot of causes of wolf tones, and sympathetic vibrations are the main issue.

I would try adjusting the action a bit and trying different strings, i.e., flats.

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductFamily.Page?ActiveID=3768&familyid=3

[Doctor Jeff]

I like that guitar by the way and hope it works out for you. It's a very well-made instrument.

[p1p]

I had one of these a few years ago, but didn't keep it for too long.

A few things:

1. The balance felt really off. The guitar felt way too light for my liking. I couldn't play it comfortably sitting too.. just didn't sit right that way. I think it's meant to be used with a strap, standing.

2. Could not get used to the neck shape. Probably because it's pretty unique. Kind of like a deep U? I really like chunky, but this was beyond that, for me.

3. The tone. I never experimented with swapping pickups, but the stock Godin humbuckers never really did it for me. They sounded pretty dull and lifeless.

We all have our own preferences of course.. these were just some things I remember.

[Woody Sound]

For kicks, have you tried stuffing a piece of sponge or fabric under the strings between the bridge and tailpiece?

I know that's a small space, but on a floating tailpiece type guitar that area can be the cause of all sorts of pings and things...I wonder if you're getting it here on a very small scale...

A

And at the same time, thread a strip of fabric or felt under the strings just in front of the nut, in the first fret area. (Similar effect to those string dampers used by Van Eps and Ellis. And also under the strings *behind* the nut.

[Tommy_G]

Bit of a rabbit hole but I have a theory!

My electric guitar that has zero issues has very distinct pitch differences String to string if I strum between the bridge and the stop... And they are very musical sounding.. Like the high keys on a piano.

The 2nd and 3rd strings on this guitar have near identical pitches and they are really loud and resonant when I strum between the bridge and stop. So it would make a bit of sense they are possibly doubling the amount of this frequency content coming from the guitar with just enough dissonance between them to make that shrill ringing intermodulation.

I also think the break angle to the stop may be just such that there is a fret buzz kindof thingy going on inside the stop hole.

So... I think my next step is to find a string gauge that retunes the sympathetic harmonics.

I have to say... This guitar SINGS like old Santana through a Boogie. This is going to be a treasure of a guitar if I can lick this issue.

I will say the pickups seem unbalanced.. Almost like there is a higher output pickup at the neck vs. Bridge. Going to have to run an impedance test to see if someone interchanged the bridge and neck pickup along the way.

[Woody Sound]

I also think the break angle to the stop may be just such that there is a fret buzz kindof thingy going on inside the stop hole.

Can you raise the stop a little bit?

[john_a]

That stop TP appears to be interchangeable with the Gibson design, have you considered swapping it out for a different material?
I suspect the original TP on there is zinc, but you can get aluminum, bell brass, steel (with aluminum and zinc being the most used.)

Stop TP post spread are almost always 82 -82.5mm, but also have to pay attention to the width and height of the "ears" so they match the studs if they're not included (usually a stop comes with matching studs so you really only have to know the thread of the body insert, 8mm or 5/16".)

Stop TP material can make a difference, and unlike a TOM bridge, there's nothing wrong with the <20$ versions. You can get fancy and use studs that do not have a lower ledge (for the TP ears) but instead use a spacer between the body insert and TP, that provides a very solid TP mount to body, as you literally are clamping it down. In fact, even without replacing the TP, you might find that odd resonance cured if you simply found a way to clamp the original studs down with a spacer it can tighten against.

John

[newsense]

Maybe a silly question- but have you checked whether the bridge is on back-to-front ?

[p1p]

Might having a new nut cut help? I suppose you could eliminate things one by one to get to the source. Or take it to a decent luthier?

[Matt Cushman]

Check your breakover angle. The breakover angle is the angle of the string from the bridge to the tailpiece. The angle should be about 12%. You can set the tailpiece higher or lower by turning the 2 mounting screws. If your T P is too low or high the breakover angle may be incorrect. This may be part of your problem.

[DRS]

I have a Montreal Premiere and I get none of the ringing the OP gets. My vote goes to poor set-up or fret leveling. when a guitar plays differently on the low frets than it does on the high frets, it's almost always out-of-level frets. Maybe the seller did get the frets leveled. Maybe the tech did a poor job.

[Tommy_G]

Maybe a silly question- but have you checked whether the bridge is on back-to-front ?

Interesting point... How can I tell which direction itis supposed to be?

Saddle adjustment screws are on the bridge side and saddles have the chamfered edge on the bridge side as well. Doesn't look like a high quality bridge actually.

[Tommy_G]

I have a Montreal Premiere and I get none of the ringing the OP gets. My vote goes to poor set-up or fret leveling. when a guitar plays differently on the low frets than it does on the high frets, it's almost always out-of-level frets. Maybe the seller did get the frets leveled. Maybe the tech did a poor job.

Yes, might be a poor job.

Yesterday I thought I may have seen inconsistency at about the 12th fret when i looked down the fretboard at an angle where I can just see all of the frets.

Just double checked.. Couldnt see what I thought I saw yesterday.

[newsense]

Interesting point... How can I tell which direction itis supposed to be?

Saddle adjustment screws are on the bridge side and saddles have the chamfered edge on the bridge side as well. Doesn't look like a high quality bridge actually.

Like this ?



Screws on the side facing the stopbar - or in my case the trapeze. This was my Montreal Premiere Supreme.

[mr. beaumont]

Tommy, did you try the sponge trick?

[Alter]

Are you absolutely sure it is not a symptom of action being to low / frets having problems? I have seen guitars with a high pitch ring on some areas of the fretboard caused by these. The strings would slightly contact the higher frets when played, not enough to change the pitch or even buzz, but the ringing was there. Also try muting the parts of the strings behind the nut and bridge. Give it a few days to make sure it is not a humidity thing, although it seems unlikely. I would show it to a good repairman before giving up on it.

[Tommy_G]

I raised the bridge to see if I could reduce any fret buzz related issues. It seemed to help quite a bit. There is still a good bite when I bend the third string. It seems the behind the bridge harmonic raises just enough to match the harmonic on the unbent 2nd string and the ring is huge.

My current belief is we got a couple things all interacting to compound that frequency bump. I have never heard behind the bridge tones ring out so loud as the 2nd and 3rd strings... There are characteristics of fret buzz,sympathetic vibrations, guitar resonance, pickup resonance all amplifying and aggrevating that freq.

Which makes it a four phase problem to solve. Jammed at a buddies and he thinks its the best sounding guitar he has heard me play.. So I think its worth some effort.

[Tommy_G]

Tommy, did you try the sponge trick?

I have been at a loss to try this without a ready source of sponge.

But fate smiled on me and I found my kids nerf gun bullet behind one of my amps tonight.

The synthetic foam was hollow and too small diameter to fit under the tailstrings... But.. the rubber bullet end wedged nicely between the 2nd and 3rd string... And you know what? ... It solved at least 80 percent of the remaining issue (eg. the action raised to minimize fret buzz) and made the tone fatter and tighter... I like where this is headed.

What is interesting is that with the loud ringing damped, the remaining fret buzz is very audible. So it appears fret buzz and the ringing are related interactions as one of the thread followers pointed out above.

I had been palm and finger damping the tail strings to see if I could stop the ringing and I couldn't improve thing
.so I am quite surprised this did the trick.

So..all said.. I dont love the prospect of a rubber bullet head stuck in there but it is proof this issue can be solved.

[Matt Cushman]

The fact that you can damp the ringing behind the bridge with rubber indicates a too steep breakover angle at the bridge. The breakover angle should be 12% or less. What breakover angle do you have the tailpiece set to now?