Composite Acoustics, Rainsong, and other carbon fiber flattops

[Klatu]

I'd like to get some opinions on the more prevalent carbon fiber flattop guitars on the market, as I'm considering picking one up to shlep around humid South Florida. Spring is coming, and with the warmer weather comes incredibly high humidity which makes it very uncomfortable to take my prized solid wood archtops to outdoor gatherings (taking one to the beach would be unthinkable).

Clips I've seen of Composite Acoustics and Rainsong guitars seem promising, but I don't have any hands on experience with either and don't know whether the sound and playability would work for chord melody and jazz improv.

What say you?

[Woody Sound]

[jads57]

The Rainsong guitars I've played sound fine and very much in the flatop traditional tone. If I were a traveling pro guitarist, I'd definitely go that route. The only down side I can see is they never improve tonally!

I think they have a couple of different neck shapes so make sure to check on that as well.

[Alter]

It sure sounds promising not to have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of wood, but, having a choice around 1500$, would you choose a carbon guitar or say a Martin D16?

[rob taft]

I've only played composite guitars by Rainsong and Emerald. I preferred the Emerald. It was enough to approach the owner of the company Alistair Hay about building a fully composite archtop. Unfortunately, at the time I had some health issues which scuttled those plans. But I have seen Alistair's custom work first hand and the workmanship is first rate. I also briefly played the headless "steampunk" electric guitar pictured under his portfolio on Emerald's website while he (Alistair and his brother) were in my neck of the woods a couple of years ago. Shoot them and email about what you are looking for tonally.

I think they would sound fine for chord melody playing. The ones I have played have good string separation.

Carbon Fiber Acoustic Guitars - Emerald Guitars

[dmorash]

Journey makes quite a nice looking carbon fibre travel guitar:

Overhead Collapsible Carbon Guitars | Journey Instruments

[TedBPhx]

I had a RainSong for years then gave it to the kid across the street when he went off to college. They are indestructible and non adjustable. Better like the factory set up because that’s it. My action was a little high for my delicate sensibilities but just fine for the neighbor kid.

[rob taft]

Another company that produces both carbon fiber guitars and a composite acoustic guitar made of flax linen fiber and resin is Blackbird Guitars.



Savoy- Blackbird Guitars

[Klatu]

I've only played composite guitars by Rainsong and Emerald. I preferred the Emerald. It was enough to approach the owner of the company Alistair Hay about building a fully composite archtop. Unfortunately, at the time I had some health issues which scuttled those plans. But I have seen Alistair's custom work first hand and the workmanship is first rate. I also briefly played the headless "steampunk" electric guitar pictured under his portfolio on Emerald's website while he (Alistair and his brother) were in my neck of the woods and couple of years ago. Shoot them and email about what you are looking for tonally.

I think they would sound fine for chord melody playing. The ones I have played have good string separation.

Carbon Fiber Acoustic Guitars - Emerald Guitars

Thanks for the post, it was a real eye opener. First off, the review sounded great, and I was pleasantly surprised by the prices on their website. It appears as though a straight up carbon fiber version of the guitar in the video is available new without electronics for $1650. That's impressive considering the Composite Acoustics equivalent will set you back $2700.

I might search for a used option, but if I can't find one, my first stop will be the Emerald Guitars website.

[iim7V7IM7]

Last year, I bought a Rainsong CH-1100NS to play when I spend time at our beach cottage during the summer. The cottage is not air conditioned and temperatures can vary from ~60-100 F (~15-40 C) and humidity can be in the 50-100% RH range. This environment is totally destructive to traditional wooden guitars.

I honestly had low expectations acoustically, but I was pleasantly surprised. While the timbre is a bit different from wooden guitars, I very much enjoy playing it and it sounds surprisingly good. I like the satin finish on the neck (doesn’t get sticky) and the non-gloss top doesn’t show right arm marks as well. I can leave the guitar in this torture test environment (with Elixir PB strings) and come back after a week to find the guitar perfectly in tune. This model is a 15” guitar, 12-frets to the body, 24.9” scale, 1.75” nut width with Gotoh 18:1 tuners.



It is light weight guitar (3.58 lb.), is balanced when held in a playing position and not neck heavy. The neck profile has a bit of "meat" to its cross section and I find it quite comfortable to play. The satin finish of the less costly Concert Hybrid Series to the back of the neck is also great under hand for playing in a humid environment. The Venetian cutaway provides good access above the 12th fret to notes in the upper registers. The neck relief and intonation seems on target and are very comfortable to play. The overall build quality appears very good. The top is quite thin particularly near the rims and a subtle change in the top surface can be visually noticed near its perimeter (see photo). This might bother some, but not me. The 18:1 Gotoh tuners are excellent with very little backlash. The Access Stage III case is also quite decent for the guitar's price point, with good sized accessory pocket.

In the grand scheme of guitars, this Rainsong is a "good" sounding guitar definitely worthy of playing, performing with and enjoying; but it is by no means a profoundly "great" guitar. If you are seeking the goal of ethereal tone, go find a wood guitar at a higher price point and deal with the inherent stability challenges that come along for the ride. That said, I am very pleased with the sound of my Rainsong and I am really enjoying playing it!

• It has a bright, clear timbre with high end sparkle and a focused bass.
• It possesses excellent string-to-string clarity and balance in volume.
• It also retains its timbral character in its upper registers which many guitars do not.
• It has as an amazingly fast attack with notes that surge to peak volume and jump from the guitar with cut, projection and decay slowly with long sustain.
• It is quite responsive to varying touch retaining its character even with the lightest of picking and has high headroom when one digs in.
• It has some level of euphonic warmth to its sound that is musical in nature in its own way, but it is different than the warmth found in a fine wood guitar in my opinion. The sense of warmth seems to be enhanced when playing with one's fingers vs. a pick.

In summary, this Rainsong at $1,350 with a case presents an excellent value/value proposition; and is particularly well suited for my tough environment playing application. The instrument has "excellent" durability/stability and playability. The build quality is "very good" and the sound on my subjective "poor-good-very good-excellent" tone scale is toward the upper end of "good" which is a downright miracle in my Luddite/wood influenced guitar mind. When you factor in this quality of tone with the the durability/stability together with excellent playability, I can see why a touring musician would be very happy with a guitar like this (likely with electronics).

[rlrhett]

FWIW, I build with Carbon Fiber because of the way it sounds --not because it is a boat paddle. I use a traditional carved wood neck because I hate the feel of a carbon fiber neck. I use wood linings, separate top back and rims, and wood neck and tailpiece. My guitars cannot be left out in the rain or placed in the hold of a speed boat.

But I know I could not get the acoustic volume, tone, or projection from carving spruce that I get from using Carbon Fiber. Nor have I ever heard another nylon string archtop that sounded even passable, let alone good. I choose my building components and technique based on what I believe will give the best acoustic sound and playability. Carbon fiber is most definitely not a "compromise" in my opinion.

[jzucker]

On that demo, there is very little bottom end which is the issue I had with a couple CA guitars i owned in addition to the poor electronics. I think the CA guitars are great for live use because the flat response and lack of bottom translate to a better stage sound and you can get the bottom end out of the amp EQ but on their own, I haven't heard one that sounded as good as a wood guitar acoustically. I think they would make great archtops though and I hope to try one some day.

Another issue with some of the CA guitars is that they neck dive when you play standing up due to the lightness of the body and density of the neck.

Thanks for the post, it was a real eye opener. First off, the review sounded great, and I was pleasantly surprised by the prices on their website. It appears as though a straight up carbon fiber version of the guitar in the video is available new without electronics for $1650. That's impressive considering the Composite Acoustics equivalent will set you back $2700.

I might search for a used option, but if I can't find one, my first stop will be the Emerald Guitars website.

[Cunamara]

I haven't looked at CF instruments in a long time. The ones I played a 5+ years ago sounded terrible: brittle, plastic-y, thin, nasal. No warmth and little bass response. All things I and most people, I suspect, don't like in guitar tone. The most recent was a Rainsong. Those guitars made the late 70s - early 80s Ovations sound warm and fat by comparison. I've never had any further interest in them. Seems like there have been some improvements since then.

With every material there is bound to be a learning curve. Luthiers building with wood have to learn how it works, too, even though there is a longstanding tradition and knowledge base about that. There are plenty of wood guitars that sound bad. CF may need some further development to get to good tone- different weave/material, different matrix, different bracing (given the tailorable stiffness of CF, maybe no bracing). It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next ten years.

[dhd]

One thing I noticed when shopping for carbon fiber guitars, RainSong CF guitars do not come with stainless steel frets.
I believe most, if not all the other Carbon Fiber guitar manufactures offer stainless steel frets on their guitars.

[iim7V7IM7]

I believe that this is intentional on RainSong's part for a few reasons. They use nickel .039" x 0.106" wire which is close to vintage height but wider. RainSong's already have a brighter timbre compared to most wooden guitars and they feel that the stainless steel frets impart a touch more brightness to their voice that they are not looking for. Additionally, I think the extra work associated with working with the wire is a production deterrent to them.

One thing I noticed when shopping for carbon fiber guitars, RainSong CF guitars do not come with stainless steel frets.
I believe most, if not all the other Carbon Fiber guitar manufactures offer stainless steel frets on their guitars.

[Spook410]

Almost bought one when I lived in the high desert. The few I've had the chance to play were a little on the zingy side but not too bad. It's a good sound. Not the same as wood.. but good. Should make for a nice balanced jazz guitar. They show up used on acoustic guitar forums. They also have a subforum dedicated to carbon fiber where you could get answers to any detailed questions.

[dhd]

Emerald Guitar builds wonderful flat top carbon fiber guitars and just announced ( in the following video) some new flat top model carbon fiber guitars. Mr. Alistair Hay also has plans for a production model arch top carbon fiber guitar.

News and demonstration of Emerald's arch top carbon fiber guitar can be seen in the following 02:10:10 length video around 01:42:40 time slot.

[ruger9]

The flattop Rainsongs I have played have sounded OUTSTANDING. Totally as good as wood (albeit a bit different).

If I had the disposable income to have a Rainsong as a "beater/campfire/vacation" guitar, I would, without question.

I wonder if they make a collapsible model yet? Because a Rainsong with a folding neck would be the ultimate travel guitar, imo.

[ruger9]

As for CF being "on the zingy side", that's nothing a set of Monels or Silk & Steels can't fix.

[skykomishone]

I own a Composite Acoustics archtop that I bought for travel and outdoor use. The neck, frets, and fretboard are really nice. It comes plecked. I had to do some setup mainly lowering the bridge/action. I bought it last year after playing it at a music store where I had taken my son to buy him a travel guitar. It was a good buy, in my opinion. It fits easily into the overhead, sounds good, plays really well, shows excellent stability to heat and humidity, and exceeds my expectations for a guitar costing about $1K. I joke with my friends that if I loose a canoe paddle, I can use the guitar. I've played other travel guitars. This one, I like.

[rob taft]

dhd, Thanks for the Emerald archtop video. Sounds pretty good through my speakers. Can't wait to see the final version.

[dhd]

dhd, Thanks for the Emerald archtop video. Sounds pretty good through my speakers. Can't wait to see the final version.

Here is a more recent video.

Emerald Guitars Archtop - YouTube

[rpguitar]

Sounds and looks wonderful to me. But I can't find anything on the website about it.

[Edit]
Okay, finally found another performance at least. Go to the long video at the bottom and cue to about 1:43:00. First a bit of talk, then a solo performance, and then a duo performance on two archtops. I want...

The Art of Guitar - A Night of Celebration and Vision - Emerald Guitars

[rob taft]

dhd, Thanks for the video.

Roger, I wrote Emerald this summer and they were taking orders. The base price for the carbon finish was $3950 and $4600 for the Woody. I've sent them another email today regarding pickups, neck profile etc. As I mentioned above I had talked with the owner of Emerald (Alistair Hay) back in 2014 or so about building an arch top. I was able to see first hand some of Alistair's work and one won't be disappointed with the quality.

[dhd]

I own three Emerald acoustic guitars.
Workmanship is top notch.
The folks at Emerald have always treated me very well.
Alistair has even telephoned me a couple of times to discuss guitar options.
I highly recommend them.